The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election

Well now, Republicans say, we have a nominee. That may very well be but there was only one clear winner in the confusing GOP nominating contest and it was not John McCain. The winner was Ron Paul. And the effects of his win will be felt for years to come.

Ron Paul made a classic political mistake. He told the truth. In debate after debate he pointed at his party, his president, his fellow contenders for the GOP nomination, shouting aloud like the little boy in the proverbial story, “they have no clothes” and lo and behold, we looked and they didn’t. They were all naked.

He showed that the conservative movement has lost its way, its moral authority and its logic. He showed us that we have become a red team versus blue team. That since we have decided that this is a political war and all normal rules are suspended, conservatives can do liberal things to win it. Conservatives can run up big deficits if it helps their side win. They can dole out needless pork if it elects another “conservative” to congress. They can go to war if it makes their president look like a leader and secures him another term.

But in the process, Ron Paul showed us, that we have lost our way. We are no longer conservatives. We are fighting for power not for principles. We have become corrupted by the process and the only way back is to retrace our steps and find all the things we discarded along the way.

Barry Goldwater lighted a similar fire with his Conscience of a Conservative. Its truth and arguments were so obvious and so honest that one laughed aloud while reading it. But Goldwater, himself, was doomed to political defeat. And Ron Paul had no chance to win this election either. One could see that when he first opened his mouth.

And yet, the words and arguments of Ron Paul are still resonating. They still hang over this election. They are haunting and troubling. They are producing blogs and papers and books and like Goldwater’s revolution they will one day very likely produce their own Ronald Reagan. And when those heady days happen a small but hearty band of pioneers, who first had the nerve to join him and start shouting from the street, “They aren’t wearing any clothes,” will be able to say that they could see what the country missed. They were there when history was made.

John McCain and his poorly chosen words, of staying in Iraq a hundred years, have almost guaranteed that he will be the answer to the trivia question, who was the Republican candidate who lost to the ticket that claimed the first woman and black for the presidency? Another question may very well be, “What other candidate ran that year and launched the movement that has dominated national politics for the last generation?”

And the answer will be Ron Paul.

See Glenn Hauman and lies on the internet


Published by Doug Wead

Doug Wead is a New York Times bestselling author whose latest book, Game of Thorns, is about the Trump-Clinton 2016 election. He served as an adviser to two American presidents and was a special assistant to the president in the George H.W. Bush White House.

158 thoughts on “The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election

  1. Thank you for that perspective. Disappointed as I feel this morning (Bummer Wednesday), your analysis of the situation helped take the edge off the particular brand of pain known only by Ron Paul supporters. I’m talking, of course, about the agony of the ignored, the seething fury of the blacked out.

    While I share your hope for the future of the GOP, I’m not so optimistic about the future of journalism in America. I guess I can understand if someone chooses to disagree with Ron Paul’s policies. What I cannot fathom is how the editors and columnists in this country – not to mention the so-called conservative “voices” – can sit idly by and watch a good man and his message get slandered and marginalized.

    My advice to all university journalism students across the country? Change your major.

    Marcus Dunaway
    Montgomery, Texas

  2. People who believe in Freedom are going to need to have a lot of influence on congress. One way to do this is to go to and get on their mailing list. You’ll get e-mails frequently about unconstitutional bills that congress is considering. They have an easy way to send messages to your senators and representative to voice your opinion against these bills. If Hillary Clinton wins and pushes her socialized health care program, will most likely have a campaign against that.

  3. Doug, I remember you from back in “Jim and Tammy” days, always admired your thoughts. This one is certainly no exception!

    I have never, ever had an interest in politics– until Ron Paul. I had never given to a political campaign (time or money) and never put a bumper sticker on my car for anyone including God (I didn’t figure he needed the “bump” or bumper…lol). Yet all of this changed when a “voice in the wilderness” was heard in American politics this year.

    I agree that American politics has changed and regardless of the election, there will be a continued “Ron Paul Remnant” which have taken up the call and are determined to respond to the Emperor with no clothes, continuing to point out his (or her) nakedness and hypocrisy.

    Ron Paul has given us what we had long been missing– a vision for America that our founders would be proud of.

  4. This is an insightful commentary. Thank you. One minor issue: the first ticket to include a woman and black for the presidency was the Equal Right Party’s ticket of Victoria Woodhull and Frederick Douglas in 1872. It’s only taken 136 years to move that combination onto a major party ticket with a chance of winning. So much for the idea that things move fast in America.

  5. Yes the answer is Ron Paul, Doug. And before the GOP figured that out, it killed itself. With a total blackout from the media, with the other candidates laughing at him while he was on stage Ron Paul managed to bring more people into the the party than any “contracts with America” ever could.

    Everything he is warning you about right now is happening. Look at the dollar, look at our debt, look at the entitlements. Even the GOP’s beloved war has an astronomical cost. All of that, is the Republican Party’s fault.

    We were going to get rid of the Dept of Ed, remember that? We where going to get rid of the Dept of Energy, Cut entitlements, lower taxes, Keep the government out of peoples lives, and we where not going to start unnecessary wars and nation build. Remember that?

    Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing, period. There is no argument to be made there. Ron Paul told you that. Just like the CIA told everyone that later on. And yet, the GOP still laughed at him.

    The GOP deserves what it gets with this election. They marginalized the greatest candidate for the office of president we’ve ever had.

    We will have a democrat in office. With a democratically controlled congress. They will irreparably damage the country. Period. They will Tax at a time when the nation can not handle it. They will print more and more money to fund all the services they want, and in the process they’ll kill the dollar. It’s already on it’s knees.

    Yet for all of that, I will not blame the Dems. I will blame the GOP. Had the GOP honored it’s “Contract with America”, we never would have been in this situation. It was republicans that started the war, it was republicans that thrasherd Habeas Corpus, that formed DHS, that spied on it’s own citizens.

    Those things are directly the fault of the GOP. And if I was the republican party chair, I wouldn’t expect too much support from the Ron Paul Revolution. You turned your back on us, we will turn our backs on you, and we stand there as the GOP destroys itself, and someday, we will step in and try to fix the damage the GOP made, but when we do, we won’t be Republicans, we will be real conservatives, that do not pander to any special interests, that don’t start bankruptcy educing wars. And we will put Government on the tightest leash imaginable. But before that happens, the GOP has to get out of our way.

    Don’t count on the party returning to it’s glory years with help from us. The GOP means absolutely nothing to most of us now. Look at your candidates. Your front runner. That’s what your party has become. A bunch of open border, war mongering, civil rights smashing, big spending liberals. I want nothing to do with that.

  6. Reagan’s effects were not felt immediately (or Barry Goldwater’s, for that matter). Dr Paul has served us well and the r3VOLution will see its fruition in the future sooner, I pray, than later.

    ‘And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.”‘ (Mark 6:4)

  7. Ron Paul was the last “peaceful” chance for the people to have a political revolution. My fear is after seeing how it worked out the only answer will become a violent revolution.

    Disclaimer: I am not for violence nor do I wish to be on your freakin lists. I am merely making a statement which as far as I know is still lawful according to the 1st ammendment whether or not you disagree with some homegrown terror bill that is a direct and blatant disregard of the Constitution. Such bills are the only terror I see being imposed on the US citizen.

  8. Aravoth puts his disappoinment very well, and I feel the same way.
    But I will go one further, I will support Hillary Clinton in the generals in Nov (the C’s will outmanouver Mr B eventually IMHO).

    I detest that person, and think she is completely unfit for the office morally, politically, and from her lack of any managerial skills.
    BUT, if we are going to have ruinous policies CONTINUED(!) and enacted, I prefer it from an enemy whose actions are in the open, rather than from a “friend” who dissembles and lies.
    For McCain to use such words as flip-flopper to denigrate anyone is a farce, for him to talk of clean campaign financing while taking money from AIG/Greenberg is dishonest, and for him to employ a “liaison to the hispanic community” who was a member of a foreign government fight us (Hernandez, advisor to V. Fox) is treasonous.
    And, just perhaps, Ms C will even start an end to the war in Iraq, which could be a silver lining.

    But I can not share Doug Wead’s optimism about a conservative rebound within a gerneration, like the one started by Barry Goldwater almost generations ago.

    The US was a different country then, and it will never be that country again. As P. Buchanan only recently pointed out so well, the US was over 90% white European in make-up in 1960, now its less than 70%. This is not a racialist argument, but one of culture and background. Those that built the US, and formed our value-backbone more than 200 years ago, were of the 90+% stock in 1960. Those who now make up more than 30% of our country, are not, and they do not have that background. That is not to say, ours is better than theirs, but it is not the same. When a Hillary Clinton wins because of strong hispanic support in CA (and what McCain will be angling, leching after, just wait!) because it is now 20+% of the electorate, where did that come from?
    There is no turning back, and no one who wins this fall will even pretend to make a change.
    The forces that have brought about this reculturization of our country started this in part as a reaction to Goldwaters movement, and while slow, they are winning.
    And winning on all fronts, not just demographic: see the notion of dead white male culture on our college campuses, the lack of real American / European history in our schools, the marginalization of the core canon of our arts, philosophy, etc. in schools in favor of “ethnic and gender” studies, and the general knowledge apathy among the (still) mainstream. It is only logical that new immigrants fail to adopt the common language or enlightenment-based american values: there is no need, that culture is not supposed to be any more meaningful than any other, in fact it is supposed to be oppresive and evil in many ways.
    it is sad to see that what took three hundred years to build, and what was one of the greatest notions of mankind (warts and all), takes only a generation or two to destroy.
    I hope I am wrong, and will try to do my part to keep it from happening, and I will hope that Mr. Wead is right, though I can’t see it.

  9. “Violent revolution”? Get over yourself. Guys, a big reason that Ron Paul made no dent in the Republican primary is that he is a reflection of a lot of his supporters – sanctimonious, half-paranoid, and chock-full of utterly unworkable ideas.

  10. Ron Paul, for lack of a better comparison, could become Fremont figure. Fremont ended up winning the Republican nomination, but Ron Paul, like Fremont, introduced ideas under a cohesive platform that earned empassioned, often frenzied support.

    Fremont, of course, was the first Republican nominee for the presidency in 1856. He lost to Buchanan. Lincoln, against a split opposition party, won the next election.

    Fremont had more support than Ron Paul, and ran on his adventurer background and not his legislative — he hadn’t legislative background — so the comparison is tenuous.

  11. Angry- yes. Discouraged-no!
    Anyone with an iota of fairness has their blood boiling at the complete blackout of Dr. Paul and the message of freedom, free markets, less regulation, trade-oriented foreign policy and sound currency. It is the latter that has made powerful forces pay attention and orchestrate the blackout. However, it also underscores how ‘right on the money’ (pun intended) the message is.

    The good news is that DESPITE the blackout the r3volution is growing, especially among those to whom the future belongs, the young. Rep. Ron Paul has worked hard for the past 20 yrs to be in a position of credibility when he stands in front of people and asks for support to continue spreading the message. The least we can do is to support his campaign and encourage him to keep going.

    More importantly, we should actively look for ways to get involved in local governments and apply the principles and the message of freedom. There is no better recruiting tool then showing skeptics that it works in our own backyard! Soon there will be a presidential election when a Ron Paul-like presidential candidate will win all the way to the White House and will help this diseased with Socialism country get healthy and prosperous again.

  12. aravoth – You comment was brilliantly written and I think it represents what a lot of us true conservatives believe. The Revolution has begun.

  13. I find the media’s coverage of the candidates absolutely horrific across the board. Ron Paul is the first US politician I remember ever saying ANYTHING that has real content. He has been totally marginalized by news coverage in the US.

    You have a candidate who apparently was educated in the 15th century (Huckabee) who would be a laughing stock in any country with a real education system and the pundits glowingly praise him, while Paul gets nothing with his brilliant and clear vision.

  14. One can only hope that Paul will linger and have momentum grow behind his ideas. It was a forgone conclusion years ago that Hillary Clinton would become President, it’s just a shame that she can’t do it with Paul as VP.

  15. > With a total blackout from the media, with the other candidates laughing
    > at him while he was on stage Ron Paul managed to bring more people
    > into the the party than any “contracts with America” ever could.

    Of course, these (and more) people will soon be leaving GOP en mass, in total disgust.

    Rejection of Ron Paul is the suicide of Republican Party. Good riddance, too.

  16. YES!! I agree. And I think Ron does too. I’ve heard him say several times that even if he doesn’t become president the “revolution” that has begun will continue to grow for years to come regardless of the outcome of the 08 election!

  17. It’s good to see people putting the red pill in their mouths, but now it’s time to take a swig of water and swallow.

    It’s not a “GOP vs. Dem” thing, it’s about waking up to the fact that the “establishment” is destroying this nation. The mainstream media knows what they’re doing. Both major parties know what they’re doing. They know that the things Ron Paul is saying are really popular (give or take a few issues). The establishment knows that their plan of first having the GOP knock the legs out while the Dems knock the nation completely on its butt cannot be interrupted by the likes of a Ron Paul and freedom-loving citizens that have woken up.

    Keep pushing. Stop watching local news and cable news channels. Don’t read newspapers. Get 100 percent of your news from the Internet and sites like WhatReallyHappened.Com, PrisonPlanet.Com, InfoWars.Com. Tell everyone you know and even complete strangers behind counters about Ron Paul. Encourage everyone to stop getting their “programming” from the mainstream. The only way to take our freedom back is to wake everybody up. Once enough people have taken the red pill, there’s no going back.

  18. The looming financial crisis is the only thing that will shake our fellow citizens out from their dreamy reality. As foreclosures mount and gas going to $4, consumption will be curtailed. Corporate profits will run dry, unemployment will skyrocket, people will watch other nations come and buy our companies.

    Watch Washington do everything they can to stimulate the economy (read “buying votes”) during this election year.

    But until then, the general American populous won’t get it.

  19. Pingish, I disagree. The financial crisis will be blamed on sub-prime mortgages, sun spots, the color of Hitlery’s shoes, etc. and unfortunately, since most people continue to get their programming from TV & print mainstream news, people will still not understand that the goal of the establishment is to cripple this nation so we’ll adopt the North American Union, a police state, etc.

    They don’t really want to stimulate the economy, which is why the various ideas pushed by Dubya & the presidential candidates (except Ron Paul) are all useless.

    We’re being victimized BY DESIGN. Having Dems & GOPers throwing rocks at each other serves as a tool of controlled opposition. They know people are getting pissed, so they switch back and forth between the same two corrupt organizations, using the media to tell us how great things are going to be when we switch to the other side.

    Wake the BLEEP UP people!

  20. Mr. Wead – great article. I’ve forwarded the link to many of my disillutioned Ron Paul fellows. Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective. I remember you from years ago as well.

    Mr./Ms. Aravoth – great comment! I’m especially saving this. Wish I knew who you were so I could shake your hand.

    I am also sending this article and comments along to EVERY person I know who is guilty of selling out the GOP.

    This is definitely not your daddy’s GOP. My dad was a strongly principled conservative Republican and is probably rolling around in his grave right now at what it has become.

  21. A wonderful and delightful commentary! Relect and consider that there is no hope in the republican party, nor in any other party for that matter. There is no hope in a violent revolution. Yet there is hope! And that is the hope of liberty returning to our America once again. The hope that liberty will not die as long as men and women cherish it, and, the life of quality it provides for all generations. Liberty has been dimished, and it has been dimished by the political parties that claim to protect it. It will be restored by the people who love it. And that resoration will take place as we, the people, abandon the political parties destined to destroy liberty, and embrace liberty as a core necessity of life and society. This is possible beyond the limitaions of, and without, party affiliation. If you dobut this, merely look at the ground swell of support for Ron Paul from all sections and belief systems in America. Liberty is bigger than political parties and elections. Liberty is the heartfelt yearning of all people who are invested in the future of their own lives, their families, and their neighbors…and this is why it spreads like wildfire. Looking to political parties to light that fire is futile. Political parties are rain storms on that fire. How many republicans complaining about John McCain today, will cave in to fear and vote for him next November to “protect” our country from Hillary or Obama? And the country will NOT be better off. Do not yield to fear, but proceed with hope in the movement inspired at the moment by Ron Paul. Leave the political parites and embrace liberty and liberty will be restored. I was a republican until after GW took office. I re-registered as unaffiliated. When Ron Paul came on the scene I re-registered as a republican only to vote for him in my state’s primary. And as soon as the primary is over I plan to re-register as unaffilicated. I encourage everyone else to do the same no matter what party you belong to now. It does not take long, and will send a message to the ruling elite. As each of us who love liberty, embrace liberty, we will be inspirations to each other and to those still looking for answers in this world. So do not look to the political parties, do not look to violence. Remain vigilant and guarded in the principles of Liberty, embrace it, make it a core part of your being, and always move forward and work to promote Liberty. That is where our hope lies, at least on this earth, and that is why we can always live and work and believe with hope! There is always hope! Just never misplace it!

  22. I agree with aravoth but I’m not a conservative and will never describe myself that way. This is classical liberalism at is finest and I hate to tell Ron Paul and everyone else but this IS progressive politics. Free markets and sound money democratize wealth; Jefferson and Jackson knew this. The democratization of wealth was always progressive, since the conservatives have since Hamilton’s time tried to dismantle this effect in favor of the concentration of power in the elite. SEPARATION OF BUSINESS AND STATE is not a conservative value… it is a progressive one. That is why he is being rejected by the hybrid conservatives that have taken over both parties.

  23. The Paulist Movement disappoints me, and I’m saying that as a conservative, although I’m sure some of you would likely label me as a so-called “neo-con.” First of all, isolationism died along with Woodrow Wilson. Strict constructivist interpretations of the Constitution to me smacks of fundamentalism, the very same kind of fundamentalism America has been fighting here and abroad. Let’s remember that Islamo-fascists have been attacking this nation’s people and interests since the 1970s. Islamo-fascism has been attacking America’s chief Middle Eastern ally for clearly longer than that, decades, actually. Which brings me to the Paulist Movement’s latent anti-Israeli bias. America has had a long history of defending freedom and liberty around the world. Israel represents one of the only true democracies in the Middle East. Her history is one of dogged self-determination, survival, and devotion to Biblical prophecy from the very same scripture shared by many conservatives.

    The Paulists need to stop drinking the kool-aid. There were no victories for Ron Paul on Super Tuesday. There were only defeats. Stop wasting time and energy looking for “moral” victories and triumphs of principle over politics. The Paulist Movement is no different from Ralph Nadir’s (sic) Green Party run in 2004 or those Ross Perot debacles in ’92 and ’96. Ron Paul is NOT a conservative, but a libertarian in disguise and it needs to be said. His ideas are outside any tangible reality of 2008. The U.S. has entrenched foreign interests that must be served at all cost. The U.S. has enemies that must be fought and defeated at all cost as well. These are the realities that will never change. This whole campaign of Ron Paul’s is one big idealistic and nostalgic pipe dream that in my estimation is more reminiscent of what liberals within their own political agenda try to foist on America during every election year.

  24. Not to insult you or your motives DavidBlack, But before you run about painting Ron Paul supporters as Anti-isreali, you would do well to denote what my screen name means. I am Jewish, I am One of his biggest supporters. Don’t belive it? Check And your collectivist attitude is why the GOP is finished.

    I worked and am working as hard as I can for Ron Paul. Becuase no matter what way you slice it, he is right. I’m also a verteran of the United States Army, A medic with the 1st Infantry division, and I never saw you “protecting our interests” in the sandbox with me.

  25. DavidBlack2:

    Such bile and blather, I could almost see the spittle flying from your angry lips. Sounds to me like you’re not pro-American at all. First off, what the hell did Ron Paul EVER say that was anti Israel? I haven’t heard a single mention of it from him. I did hear him say a lot of pro-American statements. And while I can’t bring myself to applaud you’re pathetic and feeble attempt at writing commentary, I do have to respect the fact that, even an imbecile has a right to drool someplace.

    Let’s take a look at your opening statement. You wrote “The Paulist Movement disappoints me”. Now, the definition of “Disappoint” is:
    1. To fail to fulfill the expectations or wishes of.
    2. To defeat the fulfillment of.

    You scribbling reads as if you have been completely against Ron Paul from the very beginning, that it smacks of fundamentalism, isolationism, and, an idealistic and nostalgic pipe dream.

    So, if you were never for Ron Paul from the beginning, how on earth could you possibly be disappointed? Are you an idiot?

    Talk about wasting time and energy! You bother to come here, a pro Ron Paul web site to give us a piece of your mind? What are you trying to prove, that you’re both stupid AND cruel? Congratulations, your endeavors have been met with success.

    DavidBlack2, we may have been drinking the kool-aid, but you Sir, I suspect that you have been drinking from the cup of the town idiot.

    You intentions and motives are so transparent as to be laughable. Please understand that no on here is fooled by your mediocre attempt. I for one, can imagine you sitting in a room full of people and thinking to yourself “I hope no one can see though me”.

  26. I invite you post a similar reaction to my own blog at

    Your reply expresses exactly the type of rabid and slavish devotion that I find in religious fundamentalists. It’s also fraught with the cliches often found on message board and in newsgroups, especially when someone counters the “groupthink” of a particular collective like this one. Excuse me for thinking that dissent would be encouraged here. I assure you that when I write there is no frothing or spitting. Critiques can be made in a concise and even-tempered manner, unless at least one of the participants decides to play rough.

    Instead of refuting my contentions, you attack me personally, which is fine, I can take it. I simply fire right back.

    Ron Paul does fail me and I’ve stated why. He’s also failed himself and his fringe base by mounting a weak and poor showing campaign. If you believe that the voting statistics in the primaries indicate success, I’d be interested in knowing what someone could think that. I’m sorry, I see nothing but failure.

    Paul doesn’t have to explicitly state any animus toward Israel for me to know what he and those like him think, which would be the old hard-line isolationist paleo-cons and their libertarian pals. If it were up to people like the, Israel would be facing assured estruction without any help from the West.

    Would you people want that blood on your hands, just like the way you sat idly by during WW2 and didn’t recognize that Jews were being slaughtered in European camps?

    I also have to laugh at these incessant paeans to Barry Goldwater. That was the 1960s for crying out loud, the world faces different and more insidious threats. I would gladly accept a cold war foe like the USSR over these medieval savages that randomly destroy and kill innocent people everyday.

    Sorry, I’m a conservative that believes in nationalism but not isolationism. I believe in spreading American hegemony, not subordinating it to collectives like the UN that’s pally friendly and anti-Israeli.

  27. Sorry, aravoth, you can’t support a candidate that’s advocating American isolationism and at the same time believe that Israel can survive threats from islamo-fascism on its own. One of the reasons Israel has been able to survive since 1948 is from the unconditional support of the US government in the form of military aid. That’s fact and I think you know that.

    For you constructivists, I don’t read anywhere in Article 1 Section 8 where it stipulates how we determine who this nation’s enemies are. The American people and its interests were attacked on 9/11/01 and that’s all the reason I think is necessary to wage war with islamo-fascists.

    And please, stop with this “Iraq didn’t attack us” nonsense. Iraq was once ruled by an islamo-fascist and he had to be taken out for the sake of our interests and the interests of our chief Middle Eastern ally Israel. I can only conclude that someone who isn’t in agreement with this harbors an anti-Israeli bias.

  28. One other thing, aravoth … like witnesstree, you’ve offered another hackneyed message board/news group attack ploy of suggesting deficiencies in a poster’s personal background that you can’t verify with facts. I don’t know why you would think that because we didn’t share a foxhole I could not have served my country or my country’s allies in another fashion. Let’s just say I saw enough killing in Israel attributed to islamo-fascism to justify my views.

    And why any service to one’s country is a necessary pre-req for posting opinions about political figures is something I don’t recall from the Bill of Rights, for all you constructivists out there.

  29. Oh, poor David Black, I attacked him personally. Now you look even more foolish, like someone that can dish it out but can’t take it.

    WWII? Why stop there, why don’t we debate every single world war in written history. Once we finish with those, we can move on to the minor wars, then the civil wars, and then finally how little Billy Higgins kicked your ass in 4th grade and took your lunch money.

    No, Ron Paul didn’t say a single negative word about Israel, or any other country for that matter. So you think it’s all right to put words into his mouth for him, right? I wasn’t even born during WWII, so please tell us, with all your highbrow and obviously superior (Sic) brain power, how on earth could we possibly have the Jewish blood on our hands from WWII, or, from some future war that hasn’t even happened?

    Then you take it upon yourself to judge us all as religious fundamentalists, old hard-line isolationist, paleocons, etc. Really, you should go back and read what you have written.

    I read your blog and how you write about yourself in the third person. He’s been called “CANTANKEROUS, INTOLERANT, IRASCIBLE, WITTY, IGNORANT, INSIGHTFUL, AND DOGMATIC”. You try to set yourself up as some commentator of wit and wisdom. Your pseudo- intellectualism is merely that, pseudo. Meaning, you are a phony.

    Okay everybody, listen up. The next Israeli that dies from a terrorist attack is David Black’s fault, because he wasn’t there on the front lines blasting away. The blood is on his hands.

    Yes, I play rough, but get a clue, I’m not playing with you at all, the gloves are off! Yes, I am personally attacking you, little Davy Black. However, I’m certainly not inviting others to do so, because you’re, CANTANKEROUS, INTOLERANT, IRASCIBLE, WITTY, IGNORANT, INSIGHTFUL, AND DOGMATIC.

    And remember this, if you’re going to write, and publish it publicly, use a dictionary to cross check the meaning of the words you use. That way, you won’t come off sounding like a driveling idiot. You see David, I’m trying to help you to keep up your façade, so your mediocrity isn’t exposed for all the world to see, so you’re not standing out in public naked, your tiny genitalia flapping in the breeze. And with my help, hopefully, the voices that you listen to in your head, berating each other, won’t blossom into full-blown paranoia and schizophrenia.

  30. David, now you’re talking facts? You must be kidding me! Let’s go back to your original post. You wrote: Her history (Israel) is one of dogged self-determination, survival, and devotion to Biblical prophecy from the very same scripture shared by many conservatives”.

    Biblical prophecy! You go on to attack Aravoth with “suggesting deficiencies in a poster’s personal background that you can’t verify with facts”. Somebody please, bring me a bucket so I can puke.

    All right David, please prove to us all, how biblical prophecy is fact?

    No hurry, plenty of time.

  31. I note how you use another typical ploy of desperate posters … you twist words and meanings to suit your present purpose. In fact, your methods are that of a typical troll.

    What a shame that you have to take personally attacks on your beloved political hero. How much does RP pay you to personally trash those that criticize him?

    I asked aravoth to verify with facts about my service to my country and my country’s allies, because he’s the one that suggested that since I didn’t share a foxhole with him in the army, my views on the military are not valid.

    It is fact that Biblical decree allows for Israel’s right to exist and all the land it presently occupies. It is fact that without US military aid, Israel would have been destroyed by now.

    Please tell me that you isolationists would support cutting off military aid from Israel?

    Tell me that you would immediately support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq?

    And please explain for me how anyone can consider Ron Paul’s campaign as anything but an utter failure based on his performance in the recent primaries. Can you read numbers? I guess not, yet the finger is pointed at me for being intellectually deficient.

    I can read figures. I can judge success from failure. I can also see blind zealotry when I see it. That’s the Paulist movement. A crusade of fools and malcontents who don’t fit into the mainstream.

    I also know how isolationists think, and RP supporters are isolationists, like most all paleo-cons and libertarians. Most all paleo-cons, like the most famous one, Patrick J. Buchanan, are anti-Zionist as well.

    I no great fan of mcCain, Romney, or Huckabee, either, but I will subordinate my personal feelings and principles for the good of the country.

    Paulists would gladly slice off their noses to spite their faces, sit out the election, write in the name of Ron Paul, and ensure a Democrat win.

    Right, that’s really smart. Four years of Hillary or Obama so you can stand up for principle. That attitude is foolish and selfish.

    And MY intelligence is questioned? You must be joking.

  32. Scripture that verifies Israel’s claim to its land:

    Genesis 15:18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates–”

    Genesis 35:10-12 God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel.” So he named him Israel. And God said to him, “I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.”

    Deuteronomy 34:4 “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, ‘I will give it to your offspring'”

    2 Chronicles 6:5-6 ‘Since the day that I brought My people from the land of Egypt, I did not choose a city out of all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man for a leader over My people Israel; but I have chosen Jerusalem that My name might be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.’

  33. witnesstree: please tell me where it is written that I must be first “for” someone before I can be disappointed in them?

    Liberals disappoint me everyday, for example, and I’ve never been “for” them.

    Your logic is puzzling, but then, for a troll, it’s par for the course, I guess.

  34. Isolationists, like the ones that believed we shouldn’t have been lifting a finger to help Jews in Europe, had blood on their hands for not supporting the Allied war effort.

    Isolationists, like the ones that believe we shouldn’t be lifting a finger to help Jews in Israel, have blood on their hands for not supporting the use of US military aid for Israel.

    This is how it works, folks.

  35. Hey Davy, now you’re slipping, trying to rationalize with rhetoric what you can’t accomplish with logic and reason.

    I’m not twisting the meaning of any word, but I will tell you what is happening. You keeping making public statements that you can’t back up with ANY facts at all. You don’t even try to confront the issues. You just use bombastic sophistry to keep spinning in circles, hoping those that see through you will eventually fall off.

    You wrote “It is fact that Biblical decree allows for Israel’s right to exist” Who’s sounding like a fundamentalist now? And how is this proof of facts?

    Davy, I’m sure Santa Clause brought you something for Christmas when you were a kid. Does that prove his existence? Or maybe you found a multicolored egg that the Easter Bunny shat out, does that make its existence FACT?

    And what about the group True Torah Jews Against Zionism : here’s their web page

    I’m sure they too can produce facts that are diametrically opposed to what you think, or write. However, the truly educated wouldn’t call these facts at all. They would call it mere dogma.

    But that’s not really what’s bothering you, is it? What really gets your panties tied in a knot is the fact that you’ve come up against someone that is smarter than you. I can out think you, out write you, and out reason you, and it just clenches your guts, doesn’t it? You realize that I have trapped and ensnared you with your own words, and you can’t find a way out, other than to go on the defensive.

    You call yourself an American, yet you haven’t written one single sentence that is pro America. You’ve written much that is pro Israel. So really, where do your loyalties lay?

    You invited me to discourse on your personal web blog, but first, please answer intelligently ALL of the questions I have asked without going in some opposite direction. You need to stay focused, or you come off looking ridicules.

    And by the way: I see from your blog and postings that you don’t know whom you want to vote for. How can we take you seriously if you yourself hold no allegiance to anyone, or anything?

  36. “He opposes the Iraq War and any other war, unless we are attacked.”

    This is a quote from a Paulist on his own website, which reveals the fallacy and shortsightedness of this allegedly brilliant statesman (not “politician,” as the Paulist believes)

    I suppose Ron Paul forgets what happened to America on 9/11/01, that islamo-fascists attacked this country, a culmination of over twenty year’s worth of attacks on this country’s citizens. Ron Paul forgets the first attack on the WTC in 1993 as well.

    Do I want someone as forgetful as Ron Paul to be my President?

  37. Witnesstree, when did trolling become a form of legitimate discourse?

    The fact is that I’m trashing your beloved hero who is, in fact, a failure.

    Just check the primary results. Ron Paul has a measly 14 delegates, all of which will run like scared rabbits at convention time, if not before.

    How does it feel to back a losing horse?

  38. Please, enlighten us all of your many success stories. You have our undivided attention. It is wonderful to finally meet a perfect person, someone who is infallible.

  39. I could never run for any elected office, because I despise the requisite glad handing and schmoozing for favors.

    And guess what, your beloved hero is no different from any other politician in the schmoozing and glad handing department

  40. Sssss, everybody, don’t disturb David, he’s formulating a hypothesis, based on fundamental beliefs he doesn’t believe in, as back up by biblical prophecy.

  41. witnesstree, you’ve proven yet again that you can’t defend your own candidate on his own merits. But really, how can you? What does Ron Paul offer but a balm for a fringe element of disaffected paleo-cons and libertarians who hate George Bush and his war “for oil” and the “zionists in Israel”?

    That’s why he has only 14 delegates. Luckily, people like his followers comprise such a tiny minority that they barely register a blip on the national scene.

  42. Oh David, how interesting. You do say the most wittiest things (insert female cackling here)

    Please, do carry on while I dunk my crumpets in my tea.

  43. One does not have to be a fundamentalist to abide by the claim that Israel has a right to exist and claim land based on scripture written by Jewish scholars thousands of years ago..

    But then, if you are an atheist, I could see where any acknowledgment of religious scripture automatically warrants being painted as a fundamentalist.

  44. “How can we take you seriously if you yourself hold no allegiance to anyone, or anything?”

    My first allegiance is to my flesh and blood and then to the country in which I was born. I certainly don’t require validation or acceptance from strangers on an internet message board.

    Why do you speak in terms of “we”? Why can’t you stand as an individual apart from a collective?

  45. Please David, recount for us your manly exploits of wading through the bodies and blood of the terrorists that you killed while defending Israel.

    You do spin a good yarn.

  46. Why should I accommodate you, when you can’t even logically answer one of my questions?

    And, are you so stupid as to not recognize sarcasm when you read it? According to your web blog, you’re a raconteur, and a insightful. I apologize if I went over your head. I will try to dumb down my responses so you can keep up.


    Well, you got one part right, you are ignorant.

  48. aravoth wrote: “Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing, period. ”

    Are you a lib or a conservative? That’s OK, I’ve known both to say the same thing, as both stripes share one thing, a hatred for Israel.

    Islamo-fascists attacked the US on 9/11. Afghanistan and Iraq are islamo-fascist strongholds. So are Syria and Iran. Hopefully, we’ll get to wipe them out, too, in time.

  49. I think the record shows that in lieu of anything truly substantial to say in support of a failed Presidential candidate, a poster like witnesstree will subsequently launch an unrelenting attack on anyone who dares to criticize said failed candidate.

  50. David wrote “I don’t know why you would think that because we didn’t share a foxhole I could not have served my country or my country’s allies in another fashion. Let’s just say I saw enough killing in Israel attributed to islamo-fascism to justify my views”.

    This would lead one to believe that you were there “Let’s just say I saw enough killing in Israel attributed to islamo-fascism to justify my views”.

    So tell us David, exactly what fashion did you participate?

  51. Well folks, I guess that just about wraps it up for the David Black hour. Please join him next time from Afghanistan, where he’ll be in the trenches with the troops, reporting from his armchair.

  52. “Please David, recount for us your manly exploits of wading through the bodies and blood of the terrorists that you killed while defending Israel.”

    You can be an eyewitness to death and destruction without being a participant firing rockets and hand grenades, sweetie.

    I also lost relatives in the Holocaust, so I know why Israel deserves every consideration the United States can offer. It’s too bad you libs and paleo-cons don’t have an appreciation for history and what people have gone through just to survive.

    It’s really sad that you have such short memories.

  53. Interesting that you would discredit the very facts that you literally demanded to be presented earlier in this thread.

    But what should be expected from a partisan hack and a message board troll?

    At least I am comforted by the knowledge that I don’t have to kiss the derriere of any political candidate(s).

  54. WOW!

    Nice long debate between Mr. DavidBlack, and the others here.

    Of course Mr. Black seems to be the kind of person that will go out and call any negative statement about Israel “anti-Israel”: I am suprised that he hasn’t used the term “anti-semitic” yet.

    Say what you will about Israel, but please stop the tired argument over a right to exist based on an Old Testament justification. Even if it were true (see below), it only applies to those whose scripture it is, and whose God endowed them with the land. Even the passages Mr. Black cites make it clear that there were inhabitants in Palestine before it was promised to the Israelites. Why should the words of one religion’s god sway anyone who is not even of that religion in our secular world?

    A much better argument would be that Zionism wanted Palestine as a Jewish homeland, fought for it (sometimes fair, sometimes not, as happens in all wars), and won. That’s it, and face the facts. In the history of the world might has and does make right.
    (I say Zionism, because not all Jews wanted a jewish homeland in this way. To many, it was God’s land to give, and God’s land to take, both of which he did countless times. And only for God to return the land to his people, not for their hand to take on their own).

    In one way, DavidBlack is right though, and that is that Ron Paul did commit an anti Israel sin (using Black’s way of thinking): he openly stated, IMO for the first time ever for any political pres. candidate, that Israel owns 300 nuclear weapons.
    That is a sin, because US official policy is to deny this fact as proven. For to do so would cause serious problems with th Nuclear Proliferation Act, Sec 530. So indeed, for that sin, Ron Paul must be anti-Israel! Perhaps, in the interest of freedom Mr. Black, you can join those Americans, including his adoptive parents, who seek an end to the ongoing mistreatment of Mordechai Vanunu.

    One last question Mr. Black:
    You state: “and devotion … from the very same scripture shared by many conservatives.”
    Oh really? Assuming it is the very same scripture, then pray tell why it is ILLEGAL for a non-Jewish person in Israel to hand a Bible (meaning OT+NT) to a jewish Israeli?
    Such an action is legally construed in Israel as an attempt to convert a Jewish person from his religion, and that is an illegal act in Israel. If you do not believe this visit Israel, and then try this in front of a policeman, whereupon you will enjoy free room and board.

  55. What an intersting arguement going on here. I offer a few facts for your consideration that, once understood, will aid you in a clearer discussion, which may just help you have a meaningful dialogue. First, there were more gentile non-combatants than Jews killed by the Nazis. What impact should that have on etablishing nations, for whom, and to what extent the U.S. should support them. Second, Ron Paul is not an isolationist. For what will be, not the last time I’m certain, he is a non-interventionist. His policy for going to war is that when the federal government takes the U.S. into war, it follow the laws governing our government…the Constitution. If the U.S. is to go to war for reasons other than to defend against a direct attack, the Congress is to debate, decide, and make a declaration of war. Read his writings and this will clear up that misconception rapidly. Third, before assigning the designation of facist to “Islamo”s, or anyone else, try to understand what facism means. I hesitate to say this, but with a clear understanding of what facist means, it is easier to apply that term to the Bush administration’s actions than it is to the “Islamo”s. Fourth, throwing terms like facist, racist, sexist, WASPist, or any “ist” is not conducive to productive dialogue. While emotional arguing can be tons of fun, try a factual approach. When done right you will be surprised at the outcomes, and you can even discuss matters such as Biblical prophecy…but that should be discussed in a seperate venue dealing with Biblical prophecy. It is a great way to run a religion, but not a country!

  56. teynnensweig: I don’t know if you’d call what was going on between myself and witnesstree a debate. It seemed to me little more than a troll attacking a Non-Believer in RP.

    By scripture, I was previously referring only to the OT, which Jews and Christians do read and try to follow.

    As for the NT, it is relevant to the point I will try to make now about Christians.

    Conservatives in America, if they truly are conservatives, are typically Jewish or Christian people. Sorry, atheists don’t count in my book. I also don’t know about muslims and I don’t care. I concern myself with the majority Judeo-Christian culture. Christians cite the NT significance of Israel and the Middle East symbolizing the focal point of Armageddon. This is why Christian evangelicals hold Israeli such high regard and support US military support against islamo-fascists.

    “that Israel owns 300 nuclear weapons.”

    These are allegations only and typical of a latent anti-Israeli and isolationist. Why doesn’t Paul admit that these are allegations only of Israel’s nukes?

    Why? The answer is clear and I’ve said before why.

    I’ve been right about everything I’ve said in previous posts about Ron Paul. I’ve heard people like him for years. You people see him as a savior, I see him as a pariah. Fortunately, I will be vindicated because this failed attempt at a “revolution” of his will crash and burn soon.

    14 delegates and counting. Way to go, people.

  57. Let me add that in the US, many Jews are liberals and anti-Israeli. They sympathize with pallys because at the root of their distaste for Israeli hegemony is their hatred for American imperialism which in their estimation drives Israeli foreign policy. They call Israel an apartheid state and tolerate islamo-fascists as “freedom fighters” who are operating out of self-defense.

    This whole situation has made strange bedfellows out of libs, paleo-cons, and libertarians.

    This is where Ron Paul comes in. Capturing the hearts of the paleo-con and libertarian fringe, he stokes their animus toward Israel by repeating unfounded allegations because he’s a POLITICIAN who knows what to say to get some votes.

    Thankfully, his appeal and his constituency is still minimal.

  58. murebil:

    Preferring to label RP as a “non-interventionist” rather than an “isolationist” is as laughable as liberals wanting to be called progressives. The packing on the outside may change but the crap inside stays the same.

    I would greatly appreciate that you refrain from lecturing me on how to conduct a discussion. If you don’t care for how I choose to express myself and my views, then kindly withdraw. I am not interested in finding common ground or reaching understandings with whom I disagree. The way I see it, this country is at war and the only way this country will defeat this enemy is to meet or exceed their level of brutality. It’s also laughable to believe that if we treat prisoners with dignity and fairness, our enemies will suddenly turn the other cheek. You must remember that we are dealing with a savage and medieval culture that will not stop until all Jews and Christian either convert to allah or die in resistance.
    That’s fact, sir, whether or not your idealistic view of the world allows you to acknowledge that.

    I see the world for what it is, not for what I hope it could be like.

    The Allies in WW2, for example, did not defeat Japan by talking and being nice to them. The Allies developed a more brutal and destructive weapon and won decisively.

    That’s how you defeat your enemy.

    Resisting an truly apt term like “islamo-fascism” indicates to me that you prefer to humanize the enemy of the US and Israel. That’s OK, that’s your privilege. I know that there is an abundance of literature written on this subject that supports the term as accurate and timely.

    The fact is, the US Congress gave Bush the authority to wage war against islamo-fascism, so why there’s any dispute over that remans a mystery. That same Congress each year since 2002 has voted to maintain a consistent military budget along with the debate you deem is lacking.

    At the core, kind sir, is what you won’t admit here. The results of the US foreign policy under the Bush Admin have not been to your liking so you’ll say anything or construct any rationale to discredit it.

    You see this quirky Texan mount his Quixotic crusade and it makes you feel good about yourself. One day you are going to wake up and it won’t be there. Ron Paul will soon realize that tilting at windmills has been a money wasting sham at the expense of people like you.

  59. “YES!! I agree. And I think Ron does too. I’ve heard him say several times that even if he doesn’t become president the “revolution” that has begun will continue to grow for years to come regardless of the outcome of the 08 election!”

    A few days ago, a Rob Dubinski wrote this. I don’t know Rob personally, but he seems like a nice enough guy, albeit a bit misguided and perhaps, bamboozled at the same time.

    When will you people learn to stop being entranced by politicians and their allegedly “heart felt” pledges to “change” what YOU don’t like about this country? You need to see them as ad pitchmen first, leaders second.

    When will you learn that people do not enter politics for altruistic reasons? It’s never about YOU, it’s all about THEM. Any allusions to an on-going “revolution” is simply another ploy to drain money from donors to maintain the coterie of hangers-on, private jets, and rubber chicken dinners.

    I will likely end up voting for McCain in November because I do not want closet marxists like hillary or obama to lead this nation with tax increases and expanded social entitlements. I don’t especially care for John McCain, but he’s a sight better than the aforementioned. At least he’s a war hero.

    That’s how you have to look at it, conservatives.

  60. teynnensweig:

    One must factor in the imperative of establishing a Jewish refuge/homeland in the wake of the Holocaust. That should have been enough reason for anyone. The fact that the pallys and their islamo-fascist sympathizers in hamas, hezbollah, etc have placed Israel under a death warrant is another sufficient reason for anyone who claims they have a heart to side with Israel unilaterally and unconditionally.

  61. “That may very well be but there was only one clear winner in the confusing GOP nominating contest and it was not John McCain. The winner was Ron Paul. And the effects of his win will be felt for years to come.”

    I don’t understand how an obviously intelligent man could make such a misguided statement in view of the facts. This must be the effect of drinking the kool-aid.

    I also don’t understand how the GOP race could appear as “confusing,” either. You have had three viable competitors (now pared down to two) and several fringe candidates that never had a prayer. Ron Paul was/is among those fringe candidates.

  62. davidblack2………, and other Compromisers like you, are the reason my descendants will, more than likely, live in a “slave state’.
    One who votes for a “lesser of 2 evils” still votes for evil. I used to do that, also, but no more. I’ve been voting for 40 years and, until this year, never had the opportunity to vote for a genuine Patriot.

    I’ll never again make the mistakes at the ballot box I’ve made before.

    Talk about a wasted vote……….McCain has as much chance of beating either Hillary or Obama as you and I do. The Democrats will rip his stupid head off, over and over again.

    Other than RP, they’re all the same. Just a matter of how far they bend you over, how often the ram it to you and how deep you get it.

  63. Well for Mr. Black’s statement that only allegations have been made about the Israeli nukes. I did put the name of Mordechai Vanunu in there.

    IF you know anything about the palling that went on between South Africa and Israel in the 80s, and about the large sales of uranium from the one to the other, coupled with all the other evidence about the bombs, it is a fact.

    The only thing still making it an “allegation” is the fact that Israel herself has not admitted ownership (as if they would!) and our government. We do not do so for the very problems I cite with Sec. 530 of the Act in my orig. post. Anyone other than Mr. Black, who will never admit this anyway, just Wikipedia “Mordecachai Vanunu” and read up on the Negev Nuclear Center in that entry.

    As to calling Israel an apartheid state, I did not do that. However, if one wants to know how this paragon of democracy treats its own citizens, one need look no further than the plight of Israel’s Sephardim. If you are of Sephardi stock in Israel, you would know what “KOOSHIM” meens.
    And lets not forget the immoral treatment of over 100,000 sephardic children in the 50’s, where they were used for secret medical experiments, the consequences of which still haunt these people today.

    One last point about the horrors of WWII giving the correct rationale for establishing Israel: If that were truly correct, how come more members of the Jewish religions by far live outside of Israel than inside? Never since 1948 has this been different, so the great number of Jews that never wanted to go to Israel, seem not to have felt the need to do so for safety.
    (And please do not mention Andrej Sakharov as an ex. of Jewish fate in the USSR, for he lived a wonderful life in the Soviet Union on the Rubelskaja south of Moscow for many years — down the street from Shostakovitch. He was not banished from there because of his religion, but because of what he did).

  64. I propose gentleman that trying to debate David Black is like trying to convert a Muslim to Judaism. He claims to be an American, but an American always puts America first. This doesn’t seem to be the case with David, as is blatantly obvious from his posts.

    Let us review:

    David’s first post: The Paulist Movement disappoints me, and I’m saying that as a conservative, although I’m sure some of you would likely label me as a so-called “neo-con.”

    Let’s take a look at your opening statement. You wrote “The Paulist Movement disappoints me”. Now, the definition of “Disappoint” is:
    1. To fail to fulfill the expectations or wishes of.
    2. To defeat the fulfillment of.

    He’s quite clearly anti-Ron Paul, so why is he disappointed? I asked, but never got a definitive answer. Yet he said I was twisting his words. An interesting case study, this David.

    He’s already on the defensive by the last part of his first sentence “although I’m sure some of you would likely label me as a so-called “neo-con”.

    Is he prejudging us, or is he trying to cover himself for the fallout his post might, and did receive?

    Next he writes: Strict constructivist interpretations of the Constitution (i.e. Ron Paul & his followers views) to me smacks of fundamentalism. He then goes on to call him, and us, Isolationists, Fundamentalist, to harbor latent anti-Israeli bias, that The Paulists need to stop drinking the kool-aid” and that “There were no victories for Ron Paul on Super Tuesday. There were only defeats and for us to.” Stop wasting time and energy looking for “moral” victories and triumphs of principle over politics” and that “His ideas are outside any tangible reality” and that “Ron Paul’s (and our campaign) is one big idealistic and nostalgic pipe dream.

    Does he expect to insult people and their ideals, which happen to be the same as Ron Paul’s, and not be offended by it?

    Then he decides to slander other people’s fathers, much like my own, by writing:

    “Would you people want that blood on your hands, just like the way you sat idly by during WW2 and didn’t recognize that Jews were being slaughtered in European camps”?

    Dissect this: “You people”, “Your hands” and “You sat”. My father fought in that war and took part in the liberation of two concentration camps, not to mention his efforts in helping to end the war. But according to David, it is US, that has the blood of the victims on our hands. A very interesting sickness David has, reflecting the guilt, retroactively on two generations after the fact.

    You see, for David, it’s not enough that America sends almost half of all foreign aid to Israel, not to mention the billions of dollars worth of military aid and armaments, it’s not enough that our American men and women were, and are being killed and maimed for life. It’s not enough for him, he wants to come here and insult people, and rub it in their faces, and gloat, and act smug.

    And then, when he realized that he couldn’t reason his way out of his own self-entrapment, he turned to the last trump card he had. Sympathy. He writes:
    “I also lost relatives in the Holocaust” No mention of all the Americans that lost their lives trying to free the concentration camps, only makes mention of his relatives. So he reverts to trying to milk the collective consciences of the American people, because he states “so I know why Israel deserves every consideration the United States can offer”.

    As if what we have given, which is already far and away over the top of what any other country in the entire written history of the world has done for Israel, still isn’t enough. Should anyone disagree with him, then they, in HIS own words, harbor latent anti-Israeli bias, which is the exact same thing, at least to him, as being anti-semantic.

    Here is my prognosis of David’s mental illness. He is obviously a self-loathing individual with a low sense of self-esteem, with an underlying obsession of doing extravagant or grand things. In short, a megalomaniac, and possibly bi-polar disorder. He becomes agitated at the thought that someone could possible be more intelligent than himself. A sign of a super inflated ego, yet with no real underlying moral character to support that mental structure. Therefore, David tends to “lash out” as it were, to the general public. Blindly swinging and striking at anything in order to get the desired affect, so that, to him, it justifies his circle of actions. In other words, his ends justify his means. This can be seen in his child like over-use of the word “Troll” as an example. He’ll use the word obsessively, believing that the recipient of the slander is actually affected by the expression.

    My advice is this. I believe that we should all try to humor David, so that he doesn’t go completely over the edge and become a danger to himself and others. When these type people and their personality disorders are made to fully see who that are, they tend to regress within themselves, or worse, go on a killing rampage though the subway system, let’s not forget the Bernard Goetz incident.

    In conclusion: I think the best way to handle David, is to agree with everything he says. Simple responses like “Oh David, you’re so insightful” or “Gosh David, you nailed that one on the head”. Eventually, we’ll affectively pacify his easily bruised ego and he’ll go in search of more and heightened praise from other diverse sources, fully delusional that he has made a difference, or changed anyone’s mind.

  65. Teynnensweig:

    Indeed, Israel has a long way to go to overcome its own hypocrisy. There is this collective “poor me” syndrome that seems to permeate the Israel psych. For a country that is always espousing human rights, it was less than two years ago that they actually outlawed slavery. Up to then, human slavery was openly allowed, as is well documented from the many thousands of innocent Russian women that have been forced into prostitution under the guise of getting a good paying job. Here’s a one of many videos about it:

    Still today, slavery exist in Israel in huge numbers, yet the authorities tend to turn a blind eye, or occasionally bust a few of these brothels for the papers and media, while in the meantime, the criminals get off with hardly a slap on the wrist. While these poor women are raped on a daily basis, infected with all kinds of STD’s, and psychologically scarred for the rest of their lives, if they live through their ordeal at all.

    Another example would be the criminals that commit crimes in America, than claim Jewish ancestry and find asylum in Israel, as was the case with Samuel Sheinbein. You can read the Washington Post article here:

    Further to the point is many Israelis tend to look on anyone that is not of Jewish blood as a Nazi as can be seen in this video. Oddly enough, this one particular video always manages to get deleted from YouTube’s site. Curious indeed.

    This is not to say that all Jewish people believe or condone such behavior. There are many that don’t. Typically you see this in a more hard core Zionist that believes in Israel’s right, not only to exist, but is superior over all other races.

    And while I personally do not believe in the murder of any race of people, I find it hard to feel any sense of guilt over the six million Jews that died during the second-world war (Since I wasn’t even born then, you may as well ask me to feel guilty over the first caveman that clubbed another over his head). Not because I am cold hearted, but because I see other injustices that have and are being done in the world by many Jewish people that they will not recognize or accept responsibility for. The Russian revolution is a prime example of this. It is well documented that the Jewish influence that perpetuated and financed the revolution was dominated by mostly Jewish leaders, like Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, whose real name was Lev Davidovich Bronstein, Vladimir Lenin, and over three hundred of the top ruling class of the Russian elite, after the Revolution. As can read about here, in an article by the
    Institute for Historical Review
    The Russian Revolution resulted in the deaths of over 20 million non-Jewish people. Some would say mostly Christians.

    There are some that will always try to gloss over, or flat out deny any of this, even in the face of overwhelming documented evidence, videos, articles, and books on the subject (most of these books written by Jewish authors). They will resort to calling people anti-Semites.

    Which leaves me with this one final thought. If, as some of the more hard core Zionist believe, that their God is the one true God, and only Jewish people can belong to this God, as quoted in the Talmud. Then it should bewilder any non-Jewish person why everyone else should suffer for Israel, and pay for their welfare and defense, when we, all the non-Jewish people, are not even accepted, or welcomed to sit at that table? If their God is right, and all others are wrong, what’s in it for us? We’re all going to hell, or some other such place anyway, right? Currently, the Jewish people in America make up less than 2% of the American population. Where’s the democracy in this?

  66. Witlesstree: I put my own flesh and blood first. I am a Jew first and an American second.

    In addition to your trolling, you’ve now resorted to junk science explanations to attack me, when all along, the fact remains that you can’t explain why you or anyone else here can back a failed candidate who has absolutely zero chance of winning the Presidency. You cannot account for his dismal showing and cannot acknowledge that you and everyone else here represent a fringe element that’s very strange and misguided. I’ve read some posts at the Daily Paul so I know.

    I’ve invaded your cozy little world and have held up a mirror to this ridiculous crusade.

    You also can’t read, witlesstree. The “blood on the hands” remark was about isolationists. You support Ron Paul, who is an isolationist. “Non-interventionist”? Cut me a break with that nonsense. I know what you people mean.

    You are NOT conservatives, that’s for sure.

    Meanwhile Ron Paul’s closing in on the front runner with a whopping 14 delegates!

  67. teynnensweig:

    I’ve heard that unfortunate tale from the 50s. I’m not going to indict a country like Israel based on that, as it has done far more good for ALL Jews than bad. Sephardim have always been considered the lower caste Jews (conversely, the Ashkenazim are the Brahmins) so there’s a history there and it still exists today. Inter-tribal feuds … what can be said about it? It’s no different than Shiites and Sunnis.

    Your claim that more Jews do not live in Israel as compared to those that do is questionable, I’d have to see some figures. But anyway, why is that significant?

    All this is doing is steering away the focus of my main point: Isolationists like Ron Paul would gladly sell out Israel to the islamo-fascists if it were up to him.

  68. “Simple responses like “Oh David, you’re so insightful” or “Gosh David, you nailed that one on the head”. ”

    It’s kind of like how you all happily bow before Doug Wead, right?

    Sounds rather hypocritical to me.

  69. “Inter-tribal feuds … what can be said about it?”

    It should be INTRA-tribal feuds.

    That’s not being said to excuse what was done, but earning hundreds of millions in foreign aid to conduct x ray experiments where the results would be unknown presented an acceptable risk to a cash strapped country.

  70. Dear fellow (true) American Patriots.

    I have been censored on this board. Actually, not just censored, they just flat didn’t post it. And even though I understand why they did it, I don’t agree with it. I know that it wasn’t to protect the feelings of one certain individual here. However, I can’t abide with censorship of any type. There are things that people should know.

    If you are interested in my response to Teynnensweig, please feel free to email me, and I will gladly send you the transcript of that post. My email address is: < if you don’t see an email address here, than that too has been censored.

    To the Moderator of this page:

    I don’t hold any animosity towards you censoring what I wrote, I do fully understand why you did it. But I will not be making any more posts here or visiting the page due to that censorship.

    Best Regards to all…well, maybe not ALL.

  71. I knew it would only a matter of time before a paleo-con let their true colors show in expressing their deep seated resentment of Israel and for Jews in general.

    I would submit that if not for the Zionists and American backing Israel would have been destroyed by now. There are just too many Jews in the USA and in Israel who have this cowardly notion that if they are nice to those that have declared jihad, then all hostilities would cease. Such thinking is a quick route to extinction.

    My major DISAPPOINTMENT in Ron Paul’s campaign is that it unfortunately attracts those that think Israel is the cause of most of the problems in the Middle East and that the US should stop supporting her. I know how paleo-cons and libertarians think. I’ve been encountering them for years and they all play from the same script. The Paul campaign appeals directly to that crowd and that’s fact.

  72. Pingback: Jonas
  73. I consider myself a US citizen and an American patriot. I live in the US, grew up here, studied its history, and believe in the principles that formed the basis of our government. Protection of individual citizens and rights of citizens by limited government and enforcing the rule of law – separation of powers – and separation of private interests (e.g. religion) from public interests (e.g. government regulation, taxation) chief among them.

    Therefore, as an American citizen who believes in the founding principles of America, I am motivated by American concerns and ONLY American concerns. This is why I am attracted to Ron Paul; I believe he is motivated by American concerns and by upholding principles that have established and can safeguard those concerns.

    On foreign policy – I default to my concern for America and its citizens. I am turned off by anyone who would put another nation’s concerns before our own concerns. This blog is rife with demands and suggestions to support Israel and all of the horrors that would befall Israel if we didn’t support them with our money, our weapons, our votes in the UN, our resources etc.

    Who cares. If Israel is a viable nation then they should be able to exist on their own steam. If they want resources they should give something of value for them – and I see no value flowing into the US from Israel, only value flowing from the US to Israel. Far far more interest would I have in supporting Japan who spends hundreds of billions bolstering our fluttering dollar. If Japan doesn’t need our help, great. But that fact provides no excuse for us to fritter monetary resources to justify increasing taxes. I thought this was a staple conservative belief?

    Speaking of staple conservative beliefs, what happened to the notion that the US Govt. is subservient to its citizenry? That money and power are obtained by its citizens and for its citizens? I agree with Ron Paul that we should take the money we are spending on Israel, the many Arab and Muslim countries in the Middle East, and elsewhere around the world to prop up wasteful oil production, reduce the taxes that are levied to generate those monies and promote private energy research here instead. Don’t conservatives keep talking about free markets? Doesn’t that mean NOT spending governments funds, and taxing to generate those funds, on concerns of private industry? NOT subsidizing? NOT pork barrelling private development (including foreign development)?

    Politicians complain about pork barrel spending at home, but are happy to to send dozens of billions per year to foreign nations to blackmail their policies. That is money poorly spent.

    In general spending US resources on foreign countries at odds with their neighbors does nothing more than promote bad policy. Perhaps if those nations adopted an arms-length foreign policy of their own they would not ‘face extinction’. Claims to the contrary about fundamentalist violence are absolutely ludicrous. There are not enough organized fundamentalists to topple any nation. There are far few real “Islamo-fascists” than there are Ron Paulites…

    Fundamentalism is a police problem, not a military problem. You will never convince me to spend military dollars on a police problem – ESPECIALLY in someone else’s country. Thats ridiculous. Military expenditures are justified based on the detriments of war. Police problems involve almost none of those detriments and therefore cannot justify those types of expenditures.

    In regard to the Bible (or any other religious text), since when does religion dictate our foreign policy? It does not, and should not. It should not direct our fiscal policy either. We may be a nation of religious individuals, in large part, but we are not a nation of religion. The text that our federal government gains its power from is the Constitution – not the Bible, the Torah, the Talmud, the Koran or anything else. Therefore the only text that should be quoted in regard to determining US foreign policy is the Constitution and derivates of it.

    As a Christian I may be concerned about Israel’s welfare, depending on my interpration of the Bible. In my opinion on US foreign policy, however, I don’t give a damn about what the Bible says about Israel. The Bible’s job is not to determine the US foreign policy. US Policy is subservient to its goal of protecting the rights and properties of US citizens, period. Therefore I care about what our Constitution says about our foreign policy. Not a religious text.

    So call me what you want. Call me a paleo-con, call me an anti-semite, call me anti-Israel. It makes no difference to me. In regard to my politics, I am pro-American and that is the only thing that makes a difference. If being pro-America means I have to be Anti-Israel, then I am proud to be both.

    Nor do I consider myself an isolationist. And pretending that there is no difference between isolationism and non-interventionism is disingenous at best. There is a massive difference. Shifting to the religious texts for an example, isolationism and non-interventionism are as fundamentally different as ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ and ‘an eye for an eye’. One can summarize those two phrases with single-word tags and pretend, loosely, that their is no difference between the tags, but that is only true based on a limited set of circumstances, and never true as a general proposition.

  74. “bt7646 Says:
    davidblack2………, and other Compromisers like you, are the reason my descendants will, more than likely, live in a “slave state’.

    So how is backing a candidate with zero chances of winning going to change the inevitability you predict?

    This is where the Paulists make me laugh. But suggesting such a self-fulfilling prophecy will ensure many years of more ill-conceived “revolution” rhetoric in cyberspace, won’t it?

    “Talk about a wasted vote……….McCain has as much chance of beating either Hillary or Obama as you and I do. The Democrats will rip his stupid head off, over and over again.”

    Polling results indicate otherwise, but I know how the Paulists have real difficulties accepting hard data. The Paulist who posts this blog considered Super Tuesday a victory for the True Patriot despite his dismal collection of 14 delegates compared to McCain’s collection of over 700.

    Keep swilling the kool-aid, folks.

  75. I am astounded here at the shear animosity that a platform such as Paul’s could generate – whether you want to view it as a failure or not.

    First off, just settle down a little man. I got myself really worked up reading through all this and just had to take a break for a second so I could make sure I clearly express what I got going on up here.

    Answering the question of how the results of the campaign could be a victory, as you have repeatedly requested, here goes. The polls, votes and results were not a victory. Obviously. If it were a victory then the headlines would read “Paul Front-Runner.” They do not read that. The victory for many of us who hold a true pain in our hearts at what this nation is becoming comes in the voices we hear starting to stand up and acknowledge this fact. That is the only victory that has come of this whole process and I thank God for it.

    I grew up in a nation that I believed was how it should be but I was wrong. It was already in it’s downfall and it took several years for me to grow up enough to recognize it.

    David – you are absolutely right in the fact that today we face an enemy that wears no uniform, declares no wars but an ideological one and is willing to die and force others to die for it.

    Unfortunately, America is doing the same thing. My nation has adopted this ideology that Democracy should be spread and it’s our job to do it. That is wrong, both logically and legally. The Constitution does not allow for the initiation of Military action for the purposes of spreading an ideology. It is logically wrong because not all People are ready for Democracy. It is a special form of Government that requires a special people and time for it to succeed. If Pakistan is forced into a Democracy – who will they elect? It seems likely that since 90% of their people support a Hamas ideology that Hamas leaders will be elected. It is not our job to force this upon anyone – it is our Government’s job to force it here and to protect against ALL efforts wishing to override that Democracy – both foreign and domestic.

    Ron Paul’s concepts derive from one basic desire – for the Government to once again begin respecting and following The Constitution of the United States. These rules are very simple and very easy to follow. It is a relatively short document that establishes the legal concepts of this nation. Paired with the Declaration of Independence, which establishes the Moral Concepts of this Nation, these are two of the most prolific documents this world has seen since the Magna Carta.

    The Constitution requires a direct Declaration of War to utilize Military power. It requires Congress to issue that Declaration and it certainly does not authorize Congress to acquiesce that power over to the President. There are so many things right now that violate the base of the Constitution but so many seem willing to disregard that in favor of playing into rhetoric and labels to justify themselves. Neo-Con, Paleo-Con, Isolationist, Zionist, Xenophobe, Racist – these are all tools of a person not willing to face a discussion free of rhetoric and both sides are violently guilty of this. There, see that, both “Sides”. I am guilty of looking at this in terms of One vs. The Other when we are all facing a planned, calculated and very determined march towards Socialism, a North American Union, eradication of the Middle Class, establishment of a Proletariat and eventual One World Government.

    Let’s shit-can the rhetoric and labels and take a long and honest look at what best benefits AMERICA because she is hurt and bleeding right now.

  76. In response to DavidBlack2:

    Doug Wead is hardly a libertarian. He is the man who coined the term “compassionate conservatism” for George Bush and calling Sadaam Hussein an “Islamofascist” clearly shows delusion on a grand scale. Iraq’s dictator had no love lost on Israel, that is for certain, but he also was not in league with Al-Qaeda. The fact is that two groups can be enemies of Israel without being allies.

    Furthermore, Paul is not an isolationist. He is a noninterventionist. There *is* a difference, even if it is subtle. An isolationist does not trade but instead seeks to distance his country from all foreign affairs. A noninterventionist believes in free trade with all, alliances with none. While I do not completely agree with Paul in this regard, I do think that reducing our military presence abroad would be a good thing. The current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan is stretching our military beyond its ability to cope with other situations should they arise. A border crossing by North Korea into South Korea or a Chinese invasion of Taiwan could not be easily repulsed given our current state.

    Finally, you and Paul represent the two extremes with regard to the issue of Israel, neither of which is beneficial to the United States. While the US must stand ready to aid its ally if it comes under attack, the needs of Israel are not synonymous with those of the US. Israel cannot and must not be allowed to dictate US foreign policy. Instead, it should be US interests that are our first and foremost overriding concerns.

  77. I like compare Ron Paul to a lever. If you do not agree that we need some major changes in this country, then this argument will be meaningless to you. Let me try to explain.

    If you want a $5,000 raise at work, do you ask for a $5,000 raise? No, you ask for a $10,000 raise knowing that your boss will negotiate down from your initial offer. If you want to buy a house, you never offer the price you are willing to pay. You start way lower and let the seller negotiate back to your desired price.

    I am a consultant. When I go to my clients and I see something that needs to change, I never tell them, “you need to do a, b, and c.” I tell them, “You need to do a, b, c, d, e,f,etc”. I set their goals so far out to a point that I know they could never reach them. People often think I am insane (not really) but what ends up happening at the end of the project is the end up where they should really be (a, b, c). To institute change in an entrenched organization, you have to come at it with extreme beliefs and/or unattainable goals to get leverage on the situation.

    This is what I mean by a lever. If you want to move a heavy object (Washington) a small distance (Political and Economic change) you must have a very long lever between you and the object (Extreme beliefs from the norm). This long lever allows a small force to move the heavy object. The trade off is that the small force has to travel a long distance (long time scale of political revolution) to move the heavy object a small distance.

    I am a Ron Paul supporter. I do not agree with all his beliefs especially around the environment. However, I think is he is the only candidate speaking the truth and bringing rational fact based reasoning to the table. It is unfortunate as Mr. Wead points out, that speaking the truth will not get you elected. It only gets you laughed at in the debates.

    No one candidate or party has all the answers. We as a country need to start attempting some new strategies or we will face the consequences. It is more likely it will be your children and grandchildren facing them. In my view the only way you are going to see change is to pry it with a long lever and get some people in office that are very far from the mainstream. With all that said, I am a realist and I know my vision will probably not ever happen.

  78. davidblack2:

    I hesitate to post to a blog being monitored by a super-troll (30 posts, some of them back to back to back). Particularly someone who has written openly – I quote here:

    “I am not interested in finding common ground or reaching understandings with whom I disagree.”

    Moreover, you are ethnocentric. Again, quoting:

    “I put my own flesh and blood first. I am a Jew first and an American second.”

    Note that it is almost always impossible to deal fairly with a true racist (and it is uncomfortable to boot). You also have your own peculiar definition of conservative:

    “Conservatives in America, if they truly are conservatives, are typically Jewish or Christian people. Sorry, atheists don’t count in my book. I also don’t know about muslims and I don’t care.”

    Lucky I was raised a Christian, I guess.

    Finally, you’re a one-trick pony. For some people abortion is their issue – your issue seems to be advocating complete and unwavering financial and military aid to the state of Israel.

    Given your ethnocentrism, it would be futile to convince you otherwise.

    But it is not my issue. I do not find collective guilt arguments persuasive. There are many things in the world that I think are horrors (the mass murders of millions of people during World War II certainly count among them) but I do not sacrifice my genuine concerns for the posterity of my children because of them. To do so would be absurd. For you to expect me to do so is absurd.

    20 million Russian civilians were killed during that war. We could have done more to help the Russians earlier – history shows us that clearly and we knew it at the time. A million Armenians killed by Turks even earlier. Millions of black Americans enslaved by hypocritical southern whites. All horrors. But if someone were to come to me and tell me that I need to sacrifice the future of my girls to show remorse, I’d simply be offended at the temerity of that person.

    And you are that person.

    I note in passing that I think Israel is a mature and economically vibrant country at this point – I have greater faith that it can handle its own affairs than you do. To quote you again:

    “I would submit that if not for the Zionists and American backing Israel would have been destroyed by now”

    The IDF, seven successful wars, and a few hundred nuclear bombs suggest otherwise.

    Regardless, Israel is a very small and insignificant piece of the whole puzzle.

    The message that Ron Paul has spread is a message to Americans. It is a message of liberty and freedom. It is the gospel of small government, non-interventionism, sound money, and fiscal conservatism.

    And it is a good message. It used to be a message many conservatives believed before they became war-mongering, big-government, big-spenders.

    Liberty, Peace, & Prosperity.

    You should listen to this message, David. But you won’t. It appears you’d rather lurk in the comment sections, baiting supporters of Ron Paul.

  79. I knew it would only a matter of time before a paleo-con let their true colors show in expressing their deep seated resentment of Israel and for Jews in general.

    (DB2 Speak-to-Serious Debate translation: I have nothing to say on constitutionality and legal and moral ethics in general, or what’s best for the American people in that regard.)

    Nice move, David. After all, point-scoring with collectivist canards is naturally easier than root-level, ethics argumentation. But, you did forget to mention “neo-confederates,” “anti-Semites,” “Islamofascist appeasers,” “Birch Society loons,” etc.

    I would submit that if not for the Zionists and American backing Israel would have been destroyed by now.

    Thanks to militant Zionist expansion and American backing over the years, the Palestinians are the ones being “wiped off the map.”

    Thanks to militant political Zionism and unqualified American backing, Israel and America are creating more enemies than will be “defeated” over time. (And contrary to neocon and hasbara myth, only in that sense do the U.S. and Israel have the same “interests.”) How have the American, Israeli, and Palestinian people benefited from U.S. intervention in the Holy Land? Looks like people on all sides are still suffering tyranny, and death. But the state entities have benefited; that’s for sure. Like the U.S. empire, Israel is a cash cow for bankers and corporatists. As long as the state of Israel can perpetuate war with its neighbors, extend its topographic footprint and global political influence, and “secure” natural resources, it is acting in the interests of the financiers and their politcial and corporate cronies, who will therefore have an interest in making sure Israel is a top-5 military power. Job security. Profit security. Not people security (although most of their war-perpetuation and land-and-resource-grabbing measures are peddled as people-security measures, e.g., the security fence/apartheid wall, military “incursions,” infrastructure bombings, house demolitions, aid-freezes, olive grove uprootings, electricity cut-offs, etc.).

    But the war-profiteering will go on with or without “official” U.S. government aid to Israel. “War is the health of the state,” and the state typically operates in these ways, edgewise. Halliburton is a corporation, and central bankers are not government officials, but they are all still part of “the state” in this respect. There’ll always be a Rockafeller and a Joe Lieberman and a Dick Cheney connected at the hip in ventures of conquest. There will always be Caterpillar and Raytheon and other corporations doing business with Israeli regime. There’ll always be an “interest” in keeping state cash cows well above life support. Israel is a “turnkey investment” in this sense.

    The most important question: Where in the Constitution is the federal government granted authority to send US taxpayer dollars and “aid” to a foreign state? How does U.S. aid to Israel or Saudi Arabia square with legality and morality, zeroed-out at the Constitution and the American people? Ron Paul knows the answer: the American people and the U.S. rule of law come first, always—not some foreign state or its theocratic nature or ethnic character. Then again, the more disingenuous Paul-haters would have us believe that the Constitution is a fringe concept linked to conspiracy theorists and bigots because that’s what the Ron paul campaign is all about. “Clash of civilizations” and good vs. evil is much easier to sell than those pesky, nuanced, rational, fed-limiting, people-empowering U.S. Constitutions, Federalist Papers, and Declarations of Independence.

    There are just too many Jews in the USA and in Israel who have this cowardly notion that if they are nice to those that have declared jihad, then all hostilities would cease. Such thinking is a quick route to extinction.

    Why single out Jews? There are Christians in the West Bank and Gaza who look out for their neighbors and fellow humans against the hoodlums on the hilltops (settlers) and the Israeli military-state, no matter who the victims are. And you act as though Muslims are the only ones being hunted down by Israeli settlers and IDF thugs. Jews and Christians, too, know what it’s like to be discriminated against by “the Jewish state” in Israel and Palestine. And the Jews you castigate are usually the ones taking seriously the reality of what their parents and grandparents suffered in Germany and Poland. Zionists and others, however, ignore the past despite liberty-strippng “security” measures taken by Israel and the U.S. which are practically identical to those undertaken by the Nazis in the thirties. Oh, but stateless thugs (“al-Qaeda”) and second-world figureheads (Ahmadinejad, e.g.), who pose no real military threat, are Hitler; Iran and Syria are Nazi Germany. “It’s 1938 and Iran is Germany,” says Binyamin Nut’n’Yahoo. What a hoot.

    My major DISAPPOINTMENT in Ron Paul’s campaign is that it unfortunately attracts those that think Israel is the cause of most of the problems in the Middle East and that the US should stop supporting her.

    Gee. Where does your loyalty lie?

    I know how paleo-cons and libertarians think. I’ve been encountering them for years and they all play from the same script. The Paul campaign appeals directly to that crowd and that’s fact.

    Perhaps. But it easily beats the McCain alternative: appealing to those who’d disarm you; suppress your political speech; employ conscription for Iraq and other wars and occupations that will be waged and will last for 100 years or more; and continue to illicitly spend your tax money elsewhere, ad libitum.

    But you don’t want to talk about what is constitutional and what is moral and what is good for America; that would only make too painfully obvious the dubiousness of your position. You want what is good for other interests which you’ll contort into being parallel to, or the same as, U.S. interests. Slick, but hackneyed and self-contradicting. You upbraid peaceful and rational Jews for, in essence, adhering to tenets of Judaism instead of fighting a campfire with a towering inferno. You might just have us believe that a Bill of Rights-pillaging traitor and corporatist fraud—whose foreign policy priorities include Israel and endless war—would make a better president than the one man who defends individual life, liberty, and property and promotes peace and prosperity on a USA-first basis at every turn, as per his oath to uphold the Constitution. <em>Oh, but some of Ron Paul’s supporters are 911 truthers too! And bigots! They have no regard for Israel! Jew-haters!</em> Try again. Or for your sake, don’t.

  80. Hello my name is davidblack2 and I will attempt to gain notoriety through attacking a popular figure with extreme negative remarks.

    In the end RP gained from 5%-20% in some states. If you want to call 1 in 6 republicans on average not worth listening to anymore then you realize why the party is going to die out. Keep sub dividing and you end up with zero one day.

    Hope you get those extra hits to your blog you were looking for, I commend you on waiting at least one post before linking it. Take your advertising campaign elsewhere.

  81. “Hello my name is davidblack2 and I will attempt to gain notoriety through attacking a popular figure with extreme negative remarks.”

    Many posters here seem to have attacked John McCain and how should that be interpreted? An attempt to gain notoriety as well?

    There has been so much written here that begs to be refuted honestly. I can say this … Ron Paul supporters have revealed themselves to be misinformed, myopic, xenophobic, and paranoid. Sorry folks, passion is not a suitable alternative to intelligence.

    There is a reason why the Paulists exist on the political fringe.

    My response to what has commenced over the past few days will be posted to my blog in the next 24-48 hours.

  82. Again David with the labels. Good lord man – I’ll ask one more time to have an honest, open and adult discussion where real ideas are shared instead of this premade dogmatic crap that gets spewed out all day long on CNN, MSNBC, FOX and all the other glorious outlets of “Fair and Balanced” bullshit. Wanting the Government that swore an allegiance to the Constitution to actually FOLLOW the Constitution is in no way myopic, Wanting the people who are Invading my nation to be punished for the laws they broke since I am held accountable for the laws I break is not xenophobic nor racist; as far as misinformed goes, I would love to have a discussion of Con-Law, History, Past and Present Politics or societal evolution but, again, the damn umbrellas terms you rely upon so much have got to go.

    These terms are thrown out whenever someone runs out of factual information and reverts back to emotional opinion (Misinformed might be another word for it) and are a neat little trick that started getting used in the 60’s. They figured out that some white people had a sense of guilt over slavery so, for instance, if they were to say that welfare should have a time limit then instead of arguing with the merits of a virtually limitless system, they would just say “You’re a Racist”, despite the overwhelming majority of welfare recipients are black (NOT “African-American” – they are American Charlize Theron is more African than 99.5% of the black people calling themselves “African-American”). Well, that worked for awhile with some people but it doesn’t work anymore on a growing number of Americans and it never worked on me.

    If I start arguing the necessary steps that need to be taken to solve the ILLEGAL Immigration problem (which incidentally is nothing more than enforcing the damn law) then I get called xenophobic. Now, the trick is that the person will often be diverted from the actual topic and start arguing whether or not they actually fear that which is foreign or unknown. If this happens, the trick has worked. It’s a diversionary tactic and it was once slightly clever but is now very worn out and bush league in the current climate we’re in.

    I’m sure that you are simply posting what you are to gain traffic to your “blog” but I take any opportunity I can to try and get the plain logical ideas that this Country used to work towards out in the open again. The sad fact is that this Nation is still in its infancy. We are a young country that is still learning and deciding what it wants to become. The 2 Documents that founded The United States hold up lofty and desirable ideals that we were working towards in the past. Often it took violence, courage and sacrifice to make it happen but that’s no different than raising a child. It’s the parents job to have the courage to sacrifice for that child and to use violence to protect them at all costs. Unfortunate for all those that consider themselves modern day Patriots, our leaders no longer seem to have a sense of Courage and are certainly not willing to sacrifice for the betterment of the country. Courage would be a Senator taking the floor and saying “If all Mexicans are here to work and better themselves then explain one thing. Why are 1/3 of the Federal Inmates currently incarcerated Illegal Immigrants who were convicted of NON-IMMIGRATION crimes?” Courage would be a Senator taking the floor and saying “Yes, some white people in this country once owned some black people as slaves. No one alive today has ever owned a slave nor been a slave. Today, everyone is granted the same legal rights as everyone else. It is now time for the People themselves to take advantage of that and not rely on the Government because they think they’re owed something.”

    Now, as far as the original topic of Ron Paul goes – I welcome your opinions in all their myopic and misinformed glory. Freedom of speech is the balls isn’t it? A phrase that I truly believe but NEVER hear anymore from anyone is “While I don’t agree with what you say I will defend to the death your right to say it.” So in that spirit I say that your concept of the “Political Fringe” is completely wrong. Breaking every one day fundraising record in American History is hardly the political fringe my friend. Oh, it was all those “spammers” just doling out money probably. Forgot about those tricky fellas.

    I guess what my main point is and what really pains my heart is how lost this country is from what we were designed to be. I carry a copy of the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States in my pocket everywhere I go. I hear people talking about something crazy and so often they throw out the phrase “Well that’s Unconstitutional.” I just shiver when I hear that and then ask them to show me where it says that in the Constitution because when I do, they have no idea where or what information is in there. The very document that sets the rules for the relationship between the Government and the People – the document that enumerates very plainly what the Federal Government can and, more importantly, CAN’T do has never been read by the majority of people I have encountered in my life. Over the last two years I have bought 7 pocket copies of the Constitution for variously people I though would benefit from it and after they read it and ask enough questions to understand it, SO MANY of their political opinions shift 180 degrees.

    “But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.” Thomas Jefferson – Declaration of Independence.

    Please, let’s pray it doesn’t have to come to that to fix this Abusive Government

  83. As far as the truth not getting you elected I give you this:

    “In a time of deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
    George Orwell

    “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
    U.S. President James Madison

    “We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order.”
    David Rockefeller

    “Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
    David Rockefeller

    “Why of course the people don’t want war … But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship … Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
    Hermann Goering, Nazi Propaganda Minister

    “The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American’s freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight.”
    John F. Kennedy, (Assassinated) speech at Columbia University, 10 days before his assassination

    “If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”
    Samuel Adams

    “Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it’s realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy.”
    Ron Paul

    “It will only be a revolution that saves this Nation. Whether that revolution is one of burgeoning awareness, reborn Patriotism or true armed revolt is to be seen. It depends solely on the next actions of those who call themselves our “Leaders.” Me

  84. zen82:

    “The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American’s freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight.”
    John F. Kennedy, (Assassinated) speech at Columbia University, 10 days before his assassination”

    I just had to respond to his first, because I think it in one fell swoop discredits your claim of having risen above the “pre-made dogmatic crap” found on the 24/7 cable news nets.

    Implying crazed and paranoid theories about the JFK assassination is loony tune land, my friend. What you’ve done is reject one dogma for another.

    Don’t you see that? Given that, you should be pointing fingers at anyone.

    There’s so much nuttiness to respond to within all the posts since 2/14. If you don’t care for the fact that I’m not going to engage in even-handed pseudo-scholarly debate then that’s your privilege.

    Wake up and realize that this isn’t 1789 any more. The founding fathers had no way to anticipate the pervasive nature of global communications, the power of United Nations, the threats of communism and islamo-fascism.

    The Constitution has to be flexible enough to change to meet these threats.

    Big Business is not the threat. The have-not losers always complain about how
    they’re getting screwed, instead of figuring out how to dip their bread in all that gravy that’s out there.

    What did anyone expect was going to happen in a free market capitalist society? Greed will always be around. That’s a fact of life.

  85. Well, there really is a lot to say to that. The fact that a political assassination, whether it’s a successful presidential one like Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley or Kennedy, or unsuccessful as in the cases of Jackson, T. Roosevelt, F. Roosevelt, Truman, Ford, and Reagan – yeah, that’s just nuts to think there might be something going on there. How much time did you spend learning about those events in school. Myself, I have always been an independent student of history. It’s a highly enjoyable activity to me to get a independently published history book, read it and base what it has to say against what I already know. The point is – there doesn’t have to be a huge “Conspiracy” when so many people don’t give a flying shit about their own nations history.

    Look man – This is a problem and honestly I don’t think it’s one that can be overcome. You attack the man – you want them to look crazy, “Nutty, racist – all the things that have been claimed by you, once again, instead of having straightforward, while albeit opinionated, debate. I just don’t think it’s going to happen and I am unable to do things you’re way so that leaves this little interaction at an impasse.

    There is no dogma in looking at a situation, learning the facts, reading the opinions and critically analyzing where all that leads. You honestly can’t see that can you? If a person finds flaws in, say, a Historical account then they’re automatically labeled as one of those damn “History Truthers.” That applies to ANY event where the official reports don’t match up very well with what actually happened.

    But you don’t see that do you? You take a quote from JFK that many have never read and assign a label. Which along with your statement – “If you don’t care for the fact that I’m not going to engage in even-handed pseudo-scholarly debate then that’s your privilege” – just shows how much you’re blind to. To you even-handed scholarly debate is something to look down upon. Yes, I ignored the “Pseudo” crack, you don’t know me or what I’ve done in my life so I’m not even going to play that game with you.

    All right, the final little section for me to respond to before I go eat lunch. I don’t know if you’ve ever actually sat down and read the Constitution or not but I’ll assume you have. The problem is that you truly don’t understand it. If you did you would realize that it is not “A Living Document.” It was never meant to be and in no way does it need to be. The things it sets up are not limited to a timeframe of it’s design in 1787 to 20 years or whenever you think it became null and void. The style of Government it sets up should last as long as this country is in power. Limited Federal Government, existing rights not enumerated to the Fed given to the States, declaration of war required to initiate Military Power, Checks and Balances. None of these things are inapplicable to present day. And guess what, if there comes something that really causes problems against the Constitution and everyone agrees there is a course of action that is necessary but currently Un-Constitutional – There is a way to change it. It’s not easy but it’s not supposed to be. See, that’s the mindset that is corrupting the rules this nation is meant to live by. If something goes against the Constitution, then instead of letting those actions go by the wayside you just ignore the Constitution and do it anyway. When someone calls you on it all you have to say is “That old thing doesn’t work anymore. It’s from the 1780’s.” I wish I could do that with traffic laws or armed robbery laws that stem from Common Law in the 1500’s from England. That’d be nice wouldn’t it. The point is that if the mindset of the country goes completely to ignoring any moral or legal rules and agrees that we all might as well dip our bread in the gravy then what in the hell have we become. A nation of self absorbed, vapid, insipid little idiots that doesn’t understand shit about the world or the true meaning of Freedom and Personal Responsibility.

    Oh hell. Maybe we’ve already arrived.

  86. Zen82– Responses to your posts and others arw now posted on my blog under “The Paulists Strike Back!”

    I’ve known people like you, individuals poring through historical texts looking for clues to cement their preconception that America is now in fact an evil oligarchy working against them, the so-called “common man.” I am fully aware that populism and zealotry drives much of the Paulist fan base.

    And you’re wrong about the Constitution not being a living document. Why don’t you take your copy out of your pocket and read Article V?

  87. RE-EDIT:

    Zen82– Responses to your posts and others are now posted on my blog under “The Paulists Strike Back!”

    I’ve known people like you, individuals poring through historical texts looking for clues to cement their preconception that America is now in fact an evil oligarchy working against them, the so-called “common man.” I am fully aware that populism and zealotry drive much of the Paulist fan base.

    And you’re wrong about the Constitution not being a living document. Why don’t you take your copy out of your pocket and read Article V?

  88. You see David – that’s exactly what I’m saying – you’re so set in this of ideology you don’t even analyze what’s said before you respond.

    Article V of the Constitution of the United States describes the process required to pass through an Amendment.

    Quoted from Zen82:
    “And guess what, if there comes something that really causes problems against the Constitution and everyone agrees there is a course of action that is necessary but currently Un-Constitutional – There is a way to change it. It’s not easy but it’s not supposed to be. See, that’s the mindset that is corrupting the rules this nation is meant to live by. If something goes against the Constitution, then instead of letting those actions go by the wayside you just ignore the Constitution and do it anyway.”

    That would be the process of Amendments that I was talking about there man. You gotta read the whole thing. What I am discussing is the fact that the things set forth in the Constitution do not get adjusted to MEAN different things through time. That’s not how it works.

    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Amendment X to The Constitution of the United States

    Now, what that means is that anything NOT EXPLICITLY ENUMERATED in the Constitution as being under the authority of the Federal Government or explicitly enumerated as being prohibited to the states is left up to the States. Meaning – EVERY CONGRESSIONALLY AUTHORIZED DEPARTMENT to federalize actions of the States is unconstitutional.

    As far as pouring through texts – it’s a damn shame when someone can be criticized for learning history; however, it doesn’t take a lot of pouring to see blatant evidence that this Government no longer represents the people nor puts aside their own interests for the betterment of the Country. I am, disheartened would be a good word, that someone might actually have bought the idea that the Congress is concerned about you and is truly working to spend your money the right way, enhance and NOT diminish your freedom or to limit the control that the Federal Government has over you. Again, it doesn’t take a lot of pouring to provide you with a mountain of evidence that the Government is NOT working for you anymore. It’s not a preconception it’s just observation and logic which I don’t hear a lot coming from you. I hear attacks, dismissals and rhetoric.

    So, thanks for posting my responses – the more exposure that logic, common sense and a little old fashioned Patriotism gets the more of a chance we have to turn things around and get the Country back to a representation of Freedom and Personal Responsibility.

  89. Then again, David, I must admit: I was taken in by you. I really thought for a short time that you were honestly just misinformed and mislead. That’s my mistake for thinking that you were a person who wanted an honest, open and logic based discussion. Oops.

    Instead, you are here for nothing else than to promote your “blog” and demonize and ridicule a group of people who have nothing at heart but the best interests of this country and the desire to see it live up to what she was meant to be. So, I wish you the best of luck with your “blog” and hope you make oodles from your advertisers. I haven’t taken a look at it but I’m sure it’s just wonderful. So, good luck in the upcoming fight that’s building. Unfortunately, we will not be on the same side.

  90. Zen82:

    I make ZERO dollars from my blog. My motivation to blog is not to earn $$$. I blog to make my points known. I direct you to my blog because the Paulists need a reality check. They seem to live in a fantasy world.

    “Honest, open, and logic (sic) based discussion” to people like you is when another party thoughtfully considers your point of view and exchanges end up like a boring game of tennis volleys.

    I’m too old and too set in my ways to be fair with those I disagree with.

    The fact is, our government passes laws and engages in foreign affairs as it sees fit and had been doing so for years. No amount of whining from a political fringe and their darling candidate is going to change that. You don’t change government from the top down. You people need to get that through your heads quickly.

    Another fact is if you don’t get behind the eventual GOP frontrunner and vote for him in November, you’re going to guarantee 4 years of Clinton or Obama.

    Is that what you want? Four years of ZERO conservatism as opposed to maybe a President who’s 50-60% conservative?

  91. “it doesn’t take a lot of pouring to see blatant evidence that this Government no longer represents the people nor puts aside their own interests for the betterment of the Country.”

    Here’s my advice you … if you don’t like it, you are welcome to leave.

  92. “I’m too old and too set in my ways to be fair with those I disagree with.”

    I should retract that statement, because it should be clarified. At present, a poster has been responding to entries on my blog and I have responded in kind. No flame throwing has occurred. However, there is an unspoken agreement that he/she is not going to change my mind and I am not trying to change their mind. I AM being fair, but I am not going to back down from what I think and offer compromises. I am more accurately too old to stop and say to myself “hmmm, maybe that person is right after all.” That’s not going to happen. I’ve been around the block too many times over the years for anything to change.

    I also think I am being fair by linking my blog to this article of Doug Wead’s. The entry with the link addresses much of what has transpired on this thread.
    I don’t see the point of posting the same info twice, so that’s why it’s not here.

  93. David, I think you missed a critical point that I made earlier as far as changing the system from the top down. I answered your question as to how I could view Ron Paul’s candidacy as any kind of victory by saying that it’s not the votes, delegates or any of that. The fact that more people are waking the hell up and looking at a nation that is hurt and bleeding and actively trying to find solutions. There is an organization called GOOOH which stands for Get Out Of Our House – which is letting people join and give their political stance – then the people will get together from each district and pick a representative. GOOOH will then pay all campaign expenses for those chosen reps. The only caveats are that you cannot have more than 11.5 million dollars in assests, cannot be a lawyer and cannot have been a politician before. You also have to sign a contract stating that you’ll leave after your term is up thus getting rid of the millionaire lawyers who become professional politicians.

    My point being that, to me at least, Ron Paul was a symbol that TRUE conservatism is not dead. The fact that so many people did rally to him shows that the spirit of freedom and personal responsibility does still have a strong thread in this nation. It is the encouragement for people like me, who are still young – I’m only 25, to at least TRY and put things the way The Constitution means them to be and maybe have a little success at it because, honestly, if things continue down the road to Socialism and Government interference I believe that there will be another Civil War in the future of this country. When they finally get the balls to try and outlaw guns – they’re going to have a big surprise on their hands. Whether anything would come of it – that’s for time to decide.

    The only thing that bothers me in all the responses you’ve made, the labels – the hostility – the self-righteousness, it is all aimed at a group of people that GENUINELY want the United States to be what it was meant to be. That’s a damn shame, don’t you think? That a group of people can love and believe in the ideals the U.S. was founded upon that we could actually TRY to do SOMETHING to stem the tide – and in our greatest hopes actually reverse it – That seems to piss you off. What kind of sense does that make?

    Now, the statement that if I don’t like the fact that this Government has become as corrupt, criminal, Socialist and invasive as I EVER hope to see it get – then I can leave. What the fuck? Is that what you would have told Jefferson or Washington when they were first standing up and speaking out against the British? Get Out. I think that statement is indicative of a problem that I don’t even nearly have the energy to try and sort out with you. I would hope you come back with a retraction on that statement instead of just being old and set in your ways. That I can at least abide but telling a Patriot to leave – Man oh man. That is truly a damn shame.

  94. My dissection of your posts from last week on my blog sums up my thinking rather effectively. Rather than rehash every point, I should say that this perception that Paul is a conservative is ridiculous. He is a libertarian, which is a completely different animal.

    I don’t know now what I would consider you at this point, since the GOOOH proposal also smacks of yet another freak fringe. Why stop at prohibiting lawyers from entering the political fray? Why not women? Or Jews?

    Limiting campaign spending sounds curiously like McCain/Feingold in many ways. You remember John McCain, don’t you, the all-purpose bogeyman of the Paulists, the man who allegedly isn’t “conservative’ enough to be elected President?

    I believe, at 25, you’re trying on lots of ideological coats to see what fits. When you mature and experience more of life, you’ll perhaps settle down and see the world for what it is, not for what you hope it could be like.

  95. I think the trivia will probably read, “Who was the 2008 presidential candidate that hung bedsheets from over passes asking you to Google him.”

  96. No, actually Libertarians are true conservatives. Nowadays, conservative and Republican do not mean what they used to or what they actually are. The conception of spreading democracy around the world is not a conservative ideal, not even close. The expansion of the Federal Government is exactly OPPOSITE of a conservative ideal. Massive Federal spending, welfare, currency based on nothing, un-constitutional departments, Patriot Act – none of that is conservative. Redefining a term does not change it’s actual meaning it is simply lying to people to get them to think the way you want.

    No one is talking about limiting campaign spending. I’m not sure where you got that. The only mention of money was the limit of personal assets and the offering of this organization to fund in entirety the campaign finances for those chosen to run. The limits that GOOOH place on their members are purely based on reason and logic. Lawyers make up exactly how much of our congress? Last I checked it was somewhere at or just above 80%. The percentages of people who are elected into Congress and have personal holdings WELL above the 11.5 million dollars is even above that. Is that representative of the United States People? Does that give an actual representation of what the citizens think and what they desire? The point of that whole organization is to bring ACTUAL AMERICANS who want to follow the law, follow what the people who hired them believe and be a REPRESENTATIVE not a dictator. It’s not a perfect plan by any means but at least it’s SOMETHING. It’s a little, well – stupid, to compare the attempt to bring real Americans into the American Representative Government to banning Jews. Jumping the shark a little maybe? You seem to want to defend, at all costs, a Government that does not have your best interests in mind and is actively seeking to ruin and Socialize the nation in which you live. Of course, by your account, we shouldn’t be trying to do anything to get our Government back under our control – we should just be dipping our bread in the gravy.

    And no – McCain is not a conservative. He is a liberal. His adamant love for Illegal Immigration alone disqualifies him as an actual conservative because it is nothing more than rewarding criminal behavior. He is the all purpose boogeyman of ACTUAL CONSERVATIVES – not just “Paulists” my friend.

    Again, everything I’ve said regarding steps that need and could be taken to rein our Government in is based on seeing the world for what it is. There are no delusions behind my eyes. The very mindset that it’s wrong or, to a lesser degree, naive to think that THE PEOPLE SHOULD CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT is what got us here in the first place. As far as trying on different coats, I’ll take that. I am a man who is willing to think, analyze and logically reason the things I see around me. From that, I will come up with actions that can be taken. Once I’ve proven those actions to either be ineffective, illogical or just plain wrong – I’ll try something else. I wear it as a badge of honor that I’m willing to fight for what this country should be instead of just bend over, take it and maybe try to get a kiss afterwards.

    “The end comes no matter what – the only question is whether you go out on your feet or on your knees.” Me – I’m not going to let this country get dragged down to the likes of a third world nation without fighting. You can make your choices since you’re so wise.

    By the way – if you’re ever interested – let me tell you some stories about just what I’ve experienced in my life. You might be amazed at what a man who stands up for what he believes in can accomplish in 25 years.

  97. people:

    David Black is funny!

    Check out his blog. He has the same answer to everything.

    Either the poster is an ignorant idiot, or — hyperbole — an ignoriant bigot / anti-semite idiot.

    When there are valid facts that he can use to rebut an argument he uses them, but when not, its just the ad-hominem attacks.

    in one post Paul C. Roberts is used as supporting evidence for Pauls valid theories, so Black resorts to belittling Roberts (why, oh of course because he is an idiot bigot)
    Patrick Buchanan – forget him. Why, oh of course, because he is an idiot anti-semite (of the catholic kind, I guess that is worse than bad).

    Finally anyone he doesn’t like or consider to be a true conservative, he calls a “paleo”, and thus forget them. Doesn’t matter what they say.

    If they have any critical thing to say about Israel, forget them, paleo idiots!

    Such intellectual arguments, gee, make me feel real small, wouldn’t know how to answer that. He must be right, can’t rebut that.

    BTW, anybody here, please do NOT use the word paleo-conservative BECAUSE:

    That stands for real conservative values, and not any hyphenated type of conservatism.

    It is the neo-cons that are (at best) hyphenated conservatives.

    Don’t let yourselves be typed anything other than conservatives, it is they how are (any word here)-conservatives.

    As to David B:

    in his world there are jews and non-jews,
    in mine there are americans or non-americans (or if you will christians and non-christians)

    Don’t let others define YOU, you should define THEM instead

    As to answering David, don’t bother, a wall is more receptive!

  98. “Check out his blog. He has the same answer to everything.”

    What a distinct lack of self-awareness you and the Paulists exhibit. Allow me to clarify.

    How many times have variations on the following sentiments been repeated on this blog?

    The Paul campaign is a “success.”

    There is a “revolution” going on.

    RP is the ONLY answer to the “ills” of this nation.

    This nation is approaching “ruin” and only Paul can fix it.

    It’s The Constitution, stupid!

    Paul is the only true conservative candidate.

    John McCain is a liberal.

    Our freedoms are rapidly being eroded.

    America needs to withdraw from the Middle East.

    Israel runs an apartheid nation.

    Do I need to list more?

    The answer to my question is “plenty of times”

    So tell me, where’s the “intellectual” component in repeating essentially the same RP campaign homilies? The only thing Ron Paul can do is offer a balm for a disaffected freak fringe by saying what they want to hear.

    Please, don’t believe for a second that you people are conducting a think tank here.

    I’ve already told you people what you represent and you still don’t get it. You’re concerned more with appearing “intellectual” than acknowledging that yes, the RP campaign is a failed campaign with 14 delegates and with absolutely NO prayer of winning the GOP nomination.

    You offer up a confused Paulist in Zen82, consumed with class envy and prejudice against lawyers while suggesting that socialist methods are necessary to “fix” perceived socialist downturns in the body politic. I believe this perfectly epitomizes the scatterbrained nature of Paul’s followers. They sound so desperate and marginalized that they’ll say almost anything, it seems.

    I guess you have to be older than 25 years of age to understand that to be an effective lawmaker, it sure helps to have first studied law for a number of years.

    Zen82 should do some research and find out just how many of the founding fathers studied law. I sure his precious Thomas Jefferson studied law. Shock of shocks!

  99. “No one is talking about limiting campaign spending. I’m not sure where you got that. The only mention of money was the limit of personal assets and the offering of this organization to fund in entirety the campaign finances for those chosen to run. ”

    Sorry, but that, in strict terms, IS placing a limitation on campaign financing.

    Since when is being a whining “have-not” complaining about what the “haves” in the world can do with their wealth a sign of conservatism?

    I was taught that conservatism is the preservation of a status quo and a power structure that championed the accumulation of wealth.

  100. I should add, the accumulation of wealth that is not to be redistributed to the lower SES.

    Really, I think many of you have boiled down conservatism to be include only anti-IRS and anti-immigration.

    Eliminating the IRS is a ridiculous idea. Reforming the tax code would be a more useful course to take. These misguided fools that think we shouldn’t have to pay taxes should reread the Constitution where it explicitly says government has the right to levy taxes.

    The reason why immigration isn’t strictly enforced is because of business considerations. America needs the cheap labor. It’s that simple. Americans have proven they don’t want to pick vegetables or cut lawns for minimum wage.

  101. David David David. What the hell happened to you? No one “offered me up” – I’m my own man with my own ideas. The introduction of the GOOOH organization was nothing more than a discussion of the things that are being attempted to try and turn this country in the right direction. I directly stated that it wasn’t a perfect plan but at least it’s something. The only idea behind the money and career limitations is because, right now, you can’t run for Congressional Seat without massive personal finances. This puts a very strict section of society into power. Campaign Spending isn’t being restricted – that organization PAYS everything for the campaign. It’s just an organization that sees its own problems with the system and is trying to do something. That’s it.

    Studying law isn’t a negative thing. Remember those things about me that I was talking about – the one’s that you might be surprised about? Don’t assume anything about me David because you don’t know anything about me.

    Yes, the Founding Fathers were all quite well educated in History and Law, well – the majority at least, the problem comes in how convoluted the law has become and how easy it is to manipulate it. We need ordinary, hard working citizens in the seats of power in order to have a chance at stopping the MANY drives toward Socialism that are happening right now. The people currently in power have gotten the notion that they are there to decide what’s best for us, to decide what’s most profitable for them and who to cater to in order to retain their seats of inscrutable power. We have a REPRESENTATIVE democracy – where the people in power are there to simply REPRESENT those that hired them because they are nothing more than employees.

    Which is the next point. You jump to some WILD conclusions that I just can’t follow. How in the hell is supporting and desiring the adherence and enforcement of the Constitution Socialist? I am really eager to here your explanation on that one.

    David, you can insult me based on my age all you want. Again, you have no idea what I’ve accomplished and the things I’ve done in those 25 years. Instead of lashing out with these wild and completely illogical statements, it might be a good idea to take that old brain of yours and LISTEN. It may just pan out that some people know some things that you don’t. They may very well have done more than you, despite your age, or have some experiences that you’ve never gotten close to having. Then again, maybe they don’t. Completely disregarding any person who has stated simple personal observations based in LOGIC is not going to help you arrive to an answer though. If you want to argue with the existence of logic in ALL my arguments, which I’m almost sure you will, go ahead. Show me what fallacies I’ve fallen victim to in any of my logic.

    I don’t even know how to address the Immigration claim. You have to be completely ignorant of public economics, culture, welfare systems, health care appropriations, Constitutional Law, civic law — SO many things to make a claim that America needs the cheap labor. To actually advocate the unrestricted mass accumulation of a foreign third world populace that has no interest in assimilating – it stands to reason that you simply don’t know what in the hell you’re talking about, historically, financially or culturally. Has the United States ever put a moratorium on LEGAL immigration because the current immigrant groups necessitated time to assimilate? How about ILLEGAL immigration? Has there ever been an “Operation Wetback” to rid the millions of Illegal Mexican Aliens from our nation? You tell me.

    David, you simply do not respond with logical ideas and conclusions. You make outlandish claims that are based on whatever notions you’ve decided are true and don’t apply any critical thinking when you say things. You take the responses that, on the whole, have been educated, responsible and logical, and turn them into whatever you want. If you really want to think of yourself as smarter and more educated than ANYBODY else – go for it. Self delusion is an amazing thing. The truth is, you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about most of the time and have severe problems with the rules of logic and the application of them. Sorry, the truth is just that. I was raised to respect my elders but man, you make it hard in your case.

  102. Until you learn to condense your thoughts and not turn everything you want to say into a longwinded doctoral thesis, you aren’t going to succeed in persuading anyone to believe in what you think. You are also proof of the idea behind the saying “education is wasted on the young.” Try reading less and spending less time in a classroom listening to pinheaded academics prattling on about what the world could be like, instead of simply acknowledging the world for what it is and proceeding accordingly. Go live near a war zone for a few years and watch people die. That’s all the education one needs.

  103. I did live near a war zone David. Again, don’t assume you know who I am or what I’ve done. God help me if I really believe THAT is all the education I need. That was one of the biggest failed prophetic statements I’ve ever seen. When you learn to actually apply logic and reason to the things you say, maybe your statements will have a little more depth to them. Just because you would rather roll over like a cowed dog and “dip your bread in the gravy” than stand up and have the balls to fight for what you believe doesn’t mean that the education I have, both inside AND outside of a classroom, doesn’t have it’s applications. Logic and reason. That’s all. If you know how to use it then all the things you see and learn can be broken apart and analyzed.

    David, you truly are a lost soul. You have lost the will to fight for what is right and are willing to simply accept the wrongs you see around you and work yourselves into them the best you can. I don’t know you any better than you know me so maybe you have your reasons for it. The last thing that I can imagine having to say to you, and I want you to really think about this as it applies to everything we’ve discussed is this :
    “All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.”
    Edmund Burke

  104. Are you serious? You haven’t been able to follow this whole dialogue? Well, let me sketch it out for you. You asked how his campaign could be considered a success – I answered regarding the increasing desire of Americans to see a return to Constitutional Principles. You essentially said I was worthless and ignorant. I made a logical and well constructed argument – You said I was blind and stupid. I made another logical and well constructed argument – well, you see how it basically went.

    Or did you just not have anything to respond with and decide to make a satirical comment aimed towards disregarding any points made in my previous post?

  105. The reason I ask is because it’s becoming more apparent that this seems to be more about solving your own personal issues and frustrations than what’s allegedly best for America. Your anger seems to stem from one thing- you feel powerless and you believe you must be listened to. Populists typically are tiresome to put up with and this is the reason why.

    You just don’t have enough confidence to look at yourself or hear what you say with any prejudice.

  106. What’s best for America is to follow the rules that created it. That’s it. It really is that simple. Now, the interesting thing to me is that you were heatedly debating the points I made up until the time I told you my age. I went from being one of those crazy Paulists’ to being a frustrated angry powerless populist. It’s great to hear someone tell me that I don’t have enough confidence to look at myself while their opinions and ideas can be so easily re-molded.

    So, David – I invite you to read some History, ALL the history that you can get your hands on and understand the things I’ve brought up are not simply the ramblings of a frustrated young man – they are the historically proven and Constitutionally demanded ways of Government juxtaposed with the current ideological, misguided and illegal actions that the Government has evolved into taking. You’re more than welcome to sit back and see how much gravy you can get all the while watching what may very well be the worlds last hope for freedom and self government swirl faster and faster down the toilet of Socialism and greed, just don’t expect that everyone will be happy or even willing to join you.

    I have dedicated more than you will ever know to progressing the right of a man to decide his own fate, I have put my ass on the line more times and in more ways than you might be able to imagine to try and stand up and FIGHT for rights given to us by God and forbidden to be infringed by the Government and, yes, I have done this in my short 25 years. I plan on continuing through another 80 but that’s not up to me.

    You find me tiresome because you have no will left, at least that’s the impression I get from the limited amount of information I’ve garnered from your ideas. You find it tiresome to listen to what is right and just because you know that, while it truly is what’s needed, you simply don’t have the sand to fight for it so what’s the point in even thinking about it.

    And yes, I do write a lot. That’s what happens when you become educated through life and think critically about the world around you. I’m sorry that you are incapable of doing just that but I wish you the best of luck in getting some of that gravy. It can be tasty sometimes.

  107. ” I went from being one of those crazy Paulists’ to being a frustrated angry powerless populist.”

    They are one and the same, actually.

    Keep tilting at those windmills, kid, society needs the comic relief provided by those who chase lost causes.

    As far as putting one’s ass on the line, I lived on a kibbutz in Israel during the 1970s coinciding with the time that country was at war with Egypt and Syria. I witnessed first hand what kind of death and destruction Islamo-fascists could inflict. I came very close to being killed myself, so don’t tell me.

  108. Of course when zane82 quoted db2 by citing:
    ” I went from being one of those crazy Paulists’ to being a frustrated angry powerless populist.”
    he took the context of that phrase along with it. In that context zane82 is showing how DB2’s changes the way he portrayes zane82 from post to post, and especially after DB2 learns that zane82 is 25. So:

    “They are one and the same, actually” is not zane82’s being stupid — DB2, you are ridiculing yoursel with that last quote. Egg on your face. Or else, you are too dense to even understand the context in in which zane82 placed that original sentence.

    But, actually, it is neither I would bet, it is just your typical attempt at being snide by willfully replying with an out of context association.

    DB2 says:
    “As far as putting one’s ass on the line, I lived on a kibbutz in Israel during the 1970s coinciding with the time that country was at war with Egypt and Syria”

    Well if it’s really on the line, how come you don’t still live there?
    You are just a wanna-be Zionists, spend some time on the Kibbutz, and then feel all Israeli and tough. Wow.
    But let the others move there and stay there for good.
    Respect belongs only to those who go there to live for real, without Plan B, they put their money where their mouth is.

  109. If you want to discuss aspects of my life or political philosophy any further, don’t clog up Doug Wead’s blog space with it. Take to my blog.

    While you’re here, try to rationalize how any truly intelligent person could back a failed Presidential campaign with only 14 delegates.

  110. That is exactly the density and complete refusal to LISTEN and think critically about anything that’s presented to you. I already explained it david. To most people, Ron Paul is a symbol of the ideals and RULES that built this country. The fact that so many people stood up and recognized this dictates the support. As you already said, you’re too old and stubborn to actually learn from anything that’s given to you – no matter how uneducated, illogical or plain ignorant the ideas you currently hold are – they are there to stay. So I will spend my time discussing and sharing with people who are intelligent enough to know when some of the things they hold true should be re-analyzed, whether their minds are changed in the end or not.

    “If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”
    – Samuel Adams

    “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.”
    – Thomas Jefferson

    “Those who would give up liberty for safety, deserve neither.”
    – Benjamin Franklin

    “All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing”
    – Edmund Burke

    So go ahead, sit back and dip your bread in the gravy and when you finally realize that the whole time you were just trying to get yours, those rights and freedoms you so enjoy were systematically being taken from you. Our forefathers understood the delicate nature of our system of Government and the ease at which it could be destroyed. Go ahead, insult and ridicule those who mean only to be vigilant for the Rights we all hold dear.

  111. “As you already said, you’re too old and stubborn to actually learn from anything that’s given to you – no matter how uneducated, illogical or plain ignorant the ideas you currently hold are – they are there to stay.”

    Yesterday, John McCain just clinched the GOP nomination. And where’s your candidate with his whopping 14 delegates?

    It seems I’m more in step with the mainstream of this nation than you and this freak fringe are.

    I’m smart enough to understand that it’s better to elect someone who is at least 50%-60% conservative than a Democrat that’s 0% conservative.

    But then, you’ve revealed that you aren’t a conservative anyway. A REAL conservative doesn’t try to limit how people can spend their money or where they get it from. A REAL conservative doesn’t attack those from the legal profession. A REAL conservative champions the rich and powerful. You’re a whining populist libertarian stooge, kid, nothing more.

    There’s nothing to think critically about. You’re wrong and I’m right. I’ve been right all along because I’m smart enough not to back a loser. If one backs a loser, that makes them a loser as well.

  112. “I’m smart enough not to back a loser. If one backs a loser, that makes them a loser as well.”

    Wow – just plain wow. Seeing as how you are a true blooded Republican, not a conservative – you don’t know what that actually is, then you would have supported Reagan yes? Reagan has become the demigod for Republicans these days but, yes, he did lose the nomination to Ford who then lost the Election to Carter. So, all those people who supported Reagan that first time and thus supported him the next when he actually won – losers?

    You’re talking about supporting the Republican nominee in the General Election – not the primaries. Supporting Obama or Clinton over McCain would be insane. The point is though, when you choose the lesser of 2 evils, you are still choosing evil. McCain is not good for this Nation and will make no beneficial contributions. I could be proven wrong sure, but his history and the way he has run his campaign speak volumes.

    A Conservative supports the Constitution and opposes all things that violate or endanger it. That’s what a Conservative is. What you describe are Republicans – which are in no way the same thing. They are conservative when it comes to things that go against the Constitution, that’s why it’s so damned hard to put an Amendment through – to prevent kneejerk reactions by political opportunists. Unfortunately, the “mainstream” of this nation are sheep who don’t think for themselves and consider anything that goes against what either CNN or Fox tells them to be crazy. That’s exactly what happened to Reagan that first time – they said he should tone down the Conservatism – how’d that work out? You’re stuck on this GOOOH thing I brought up which was only to show that people are starting to see what’s going on and some are making attempts at changing it. Whether it’s right or wrong, it’s something.

    So, you can call having an independent and intelligent mind stupid. You can consider anyone that doesn’t bow down to who the media tells them to a whining stooge. Or you could try and think for yourself for once and see that all these people you hate and are trying your damnedest to insult are doing nothing more than wanting what is best for OUR nation. Bigger Federal Government, higher spending, entangling alliances, unfettered free trade, North American Union, unrestricted immigration – these are all brought to us by the Democrat AND Republican parties and they are NOT what is best for this nation.

  113. “Or you could try and think for yourself for once and see that all these people you hate and are trying your damnedest to insult are doing nothing more than wanting what is best for OUR nation.”

    Nonsense. They are only answering those little voices in their heads.

    “Whether it’s right or wrong, it’s something.”

    That’s how liberals think; just do something without a guarantee of positive results.

  114. Worth reading, when the very premise of the blog entry is patent b.s.?

    Ron Paul has won NOTHING. Like a mouse, he deserves to be trapped and dispatched to the garbage bin without haste.

  115. I ask for no help and offer none in return.

    Jesse reading his paleo-con sacred text “The Betrayal of the American Right” is in dire need of something, although I’m not sure if “help” is the answer.

  116. Pingback: imobi
  117. Amen brother. Your message resonates loud and clear among those of us on the front lines of trying to wake our fellow Americans up. So many have slept for so long. People just want to be entertained nowadays. They dont want to address the isues because it messes up their schedules. They are very much alike…birds with their heads in the sand. However, more and more are awaking and this is joyous to see!

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