The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election
Well now, Republicans say, we have a nominee. That may very well be but there was only one clear winner in the confusing GOP nominating contest and it was not John McCain. The winner was Ron Paul. And the effects of his win will be felt for years to come.
Ron Paul made a classic political mistake. He told the truth. In debate after debate he pointed at his party, his president, his fellow contenders for the GOP nomination, shouting aloud like the little boy in the proverbial story, “they have no clothes” and lo and behold, we looked and they didn’t. They were all naked.
He showed that the conservative movement has lost its way, its moral authority and its logic. He showed us that we have become a red team versus blue team. That since we have decided that this is a political war and all normal rules are suspended, conservatives can do liberal things to win it. Conservatives can run up big deficits if it helps their side win. They can dole out needless pork if it elects another “conservative” to congress. They can go to war if it makes their president look like a leader and wins him another term.
But in the process, Ron Paul showed us, that we have lost our way. We are no longer conservatives. We are fighting for power not for principles. We have become corrupted by the process and the only way back is to retrace our steps and find all the things we discarded along he way.
Barry Goldwater lighted a similar fire with his Conscience of a Conservative. Its truth and arguments were so obvious and so honest that one laughed aloud while reading it. But Goldwater, himself, was doomed to political defeat. And Ron Paul had no chance to win this election either. One could see that when he first opened his mouth.
And yet, the words and arguments of Ron Paul are still resonating. They still hang over this election. They are haunting and troubling. They are producing blogs and papers and books and like Goldwater’s revolution they will one day very likely produce their own Ronald Reagan. And when those heady days happen a small but hearty band of pioneers, who first had the nerve to join him and start shouting from the street, “They aren’t wearing any clothes,” will be able to say that they could see what the country missed. They were there when history was made.
John McCain and his poorly chosen words, of staying in Iraq a hundred years, have almost guaranteed that he will be the answer to the trivia question, who was the Republican candidate who lost to the ticket that claimed the first woman and black for the presidency? Another question may very well be, “What other candidate ran that year and launched the movement that has dominated national politics for the last generation?”
And the answer will be Ron Paul.
February 6, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Thank you for that perspective. Disappointed as I feel this morning (Bummer Wednesday), your analysis of the situation helped take the edge off the particular brand of pain known only by Ron Paul supporters. I’m talking, of course, about the agony of the ignored, the seething fury of the blacked out.
While I share your hope for the future of the GOP, I’m not so optimistic about the future of journalism in America. I guess I can understand if someone chooses to disagree with Ron Paul’s policies. What I cannot fathom is how the editors and columnists in this country - not to mention the so-called conservative “voices” - can sit idly by and watch a good man and his message get slandered and marginalized.
My advice to all university journalism students across the country? Change your major.
Marcus Dunaway
Montgomery, Texas
February 6, 2008 at 4:38 pm
People who believe in Freedom are going to need to have a lot of influence on congress. One way to do this is to go to downsizedc.org and get on their mailing list. You’ll get e-mails frequently about unconstitutional bills that congress is considering. They have an easy way to send messages to your senators and representative to voice your opinion against these bills. If Hillary Clinton wins and pushes her socialized health care program, downsizedc.org will most likely have a campaign against that.
February 6, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Doug, I remember you from back in “Jim and Tammy” days, always admired your thoughts. This one is certainly no exception!
I have never, ever had an interest in politics– until Ron Paul. I had never given to a political campaign (time or money) and never put a bumper sticker on my car for anyone including God (I didn’t figure he needed the “bump” or bumper…lol). Yet all of this changed when a “voice in the wilderness” was heard in American politics this year.
I agree that American politics has changed and regardless of the election, there will be a continued “Ron Paul Remnant” which have taken up the call and are determined to respond to the Emperor with no clothes, continuing to point out his (or her) nakedness and hypocrisy.
Ron Paul has given us what we had long been missing– a vision for America that our founders would be proud of.
February 6, 2008 at 5:18 pm
[...] From dougwead.wordpress.com: [...]
February 6, 2008 at 6:14 pm
[...] Check out this amazing blog post I just read about Ron Paul and his impact on this election. So true. Makes me not want to give [...]
February 6, 2008 at 6:58 pm
This is an insightful commentary. Thank you. One minor issue: the first ticket to include a woman and black for the presidency was the Equal Right Party’s ticket of Victoria Woodhull and Frederick Douglas in 1872. It’s only taken 136 years to move that combination onto a major party ticket with a chance of winning. So much for the idea that things move fast in America.
February 6, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Yes the answer is Ron Paul, Doug. And before the GOP figured that out, it killed itself. With a total blackout from the media, with the other candidates laughing at him while he was on stage Ron Paul managed to bring more people into the the party than any “contracts with America” ever could.
Everything he is warning you about right now is happening. Look at the dollar, look at our debt, look at the entitlements. Even the GOP’s beloved war has an astronomical cost. All of that, is the Republican Party’s fault.
We were going to get rid of the Dept of Ed, remember that? We where going to get rid of the Dept of Energy, Cut entitlements, lower taxes, Keep the government out of peoples lives, and we where not going to start unnecessary wars and nation build. Remember that?
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing, period. There is no argument to be made there. Ron Paul told you that. Just like the CIA told everyone that later on. And yet, the GOP still laughed at him.
The GOP deserves what it gets with this election. They marginalized the greatest candidate for the office of president we’ve ever had.
We will have a democrat in office. With a democratically controlled congress. They will irreparably damage the country. Period. They will Tax at a time when the nation can not handle it. They will print more and more money to fund all the services they want, and in the process they’ll kill the dollar. It’s already on it’s knees.
Yet for all of that, I will not blame the Dems. I will blame the GOP. Had the GOP honored it’s “Contract with America”, we never would have been in this situation. It was republicans that started the war, it was republicans that thrasherd Habeas Corpus, that formed DHS, that spied on it’s own citizens.
Those things are directly the fault of the GOP. And if I was the republican party chair, I wouldn’t expect too much support from the Ron Paul Revolution. You turned your back on us, we will turn our backs on you, and we stand there as the GOP destroys itself, and someday, we will step in and try to fix the damage the GOP made, but when we do, we won’t be Republicans, we will be real conservatives, that do not pander to any special interests, that don’t start bankruptcy educing wars. And we will put Government on the tightest leash imaginable. But before that happens, the GOP has to get out of our way.
Don’t count on the party returning to it’s glory years with help from us. The GOP means absolutely nothing to most of us now. Look at your candidates. Your front runner. That’s what your party has become. A bunch of open border, war mongering, civil rights smashing, big spending liberals. I want nothing to do with that.
February 6, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Reagan’s effects were not felt immediately (or Barry Goldwater’s, for that matter). Dr Paul has served us well and the r3VOLution will see its fruition in the future sooner, I pray, than later.
‘And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.”‘ (Mark 6:4)
February 6, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Read what aravoth said. He saved me a lot of time. Thanks.
February 7, 2008 at 12:39 am
[...] The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election Well now, Republicans say, we have a nominee. That may very well be but there was only one clear winner in the confusing GOP nominating contest and it was not John McCain. The winner was Ron Paul. And the effects of his win will be felt for years to come. [...]
February 7, 2008 at 12:52 am
Ron Paul was the last “peaceful” chance for the people to have a political revolution. My fear is after seeing how it worked out the only answer will become a violent revolution.
Disclaimer: I am not for violence nor do I wish to be on your freakin lists. I am merely making a statement which as far as I know is still lawful according to the 1st ammendment whether or not you disagree with some homegrown terror bill that is a direct and blatant disregard of the Constitution. Such bills are the only terror I see being imposed on the US citizen.
February 7, 2008 at 1:02 am
[...] For a more hopeful view of the mess, read The Mouse That Roared. [...]
February 7, 2008 at 1:24 am
[...] The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election Well now, Republicans say, we have a nominee. That may very well be but there was only one clear winner in the confusing GOP nominating contest and it was not John McCain. The winner was Ron Paul. And the effects of his win will be felt for years to come. [...]
February 7, 2008 at 1:35 am
[...] 6, 2008 By Doug Wead ∙ Doug Wead’s Weblog ∙ February 6, [...]
February 7, 2008 at 1:43 am
Aravoth puts his disappoinment very well, and I feel the same way.
But I will go one further, I will support Hillary Clinton in the generals in Nov (the C’s will outmanouver Mr B eventually IMHO).
I detest that person, and think she is completely unfit for the office morally, politically, and from her lack of any managerial skills.
BUT, if we are going to have ruinous policies CONTINUED(!) and enacted, I prefer it from an enemy whose actions are in the open, rather than from a “friend” who dissembles and lies.
For McCain to use such words as flip-flopper to denigrate anyone is a farce, for him to talk of clean campaign financing while taking money from AIG/Greenberg is dishonest, and for him to employ a “liaison to the hispanic community” who was a member of a foreign government fight us (Hernandez, advisor to V. Fox) is treasonous.
And, just perhaps, Ms C will even start an end to the war in Iraq, which could be a silver lining.
But I can not share Doug Wead’s optimism about a conservative rebound within a gerneration, like the one started by Barry Goldwater almost generations ago.
The US was a different country then, and it will never be that country again. As P. Buchanan only recently pointed out so well, the US was over 90% white European in make-up in 1960, now its less than 70%. This is not a racialist argument, but one of culture and background. Those that built the US, and formed our value-backbone more than 200 years ago, were of the 90+% stock in 1960. Those who now make up more than 30% of our country, are not, and they do not have that background. That is not to say, ours is better than theirs, but it is not the same. When a Hillary Clinton wins because of strong hispanic support in CA (and what McCain will be angling, leching after, just wait!) because it is now 20+% of the electorate, where did that come from?
There is no turning back, and no one who wins this fall will even pretend to make a change.
The forces that have brought about this reculturization of our country started this in part as a reaction to Goldwaters movement, and while slow, they are winning.
And winning on all fronts, not just demographic: see the notion of dead white male culture on our college campuses, the lack of real American / European history in our schools, the marginalization of the core canon of our arts, philosophy, etc. in schools in favor of “ethnic and gender” studies, and the general knowledge apathy among the (still) mainstream. It is only logical that new immigrants fail to adopt the common language or enlightenment-based american values: there is no need, that culture is not supposed to be any more meaningful than any other, in fact it is supposed to be oppresive and evil in many ways.
it is sad to see that what took three hundred years to build, and what was one of the greatest notions of mankind (warts and all), takes only a generation or two to destroy.
I hope I am wrong, and will try to do my part to keep it from happening, and I will hope that Mr. Wead is right, though I can’t see it.
February 7, 2008 at 3:40 am
“Violent revolution”? Get over yourself. Guys, a big reason that Ron Paul made no dent in the Republican primary is that he is a reflection of a lot of his supporters - sanctimonious, half-paranoid, and chock-full of utterly unworkable ideas.
February 7, 2008 at 4:35 am
Ron Paul, for lack of a better comparison, could become Fremont figure. Fremont ended up winning the Republican nomination, but Ron Paul, like Fremont, introduced ideas under a cohesive platform that earned empassioned, often frenzied support.
Fremont, of course, was the first Republican nominee for the presidency in 1856. He lost to Buchanan. Lincoln, against a split opposition party, won the next election.
Fremont had more support than Ron Paul, and ran on his adventurer background and not his legislative — he hadn’t legislative background — so the comparison is tenuous.
February 7, 2008 at 5:27 am
Angry- yes. Discouraged-no!
Anyone with an iota of fairness has their blood boiling at the complete blackout of Dr. Paul and the message of freedom, free markets, less regulation, trade-oriented foreign policy and sound currency. It is the latter that has made powerful forces pay attention and orchestrate the blackout. However, it also underscores how ‘right on the money’ (pun intended) the message is.
The good news is that DESPITE the blackout the r3volution is growing, especially among those to whom the future belongs, the young. Rep. Ron Paul has worked hard for the past 20 yrs to be in a position of credibility when he stands in front of people and asks for support to continue spreading the message. The least we can do is to support his campaign and encourage him to keep going.
More importantly, we should actively look for ways to get involved in local governments and apply the principles and the message of freedom. There is no better recruiting tool then showing skeptics that it works in our own backyard! Soon there will be a presidential election when a Ron Paul-like presidential candidate will win all the way to the White House and will help this diseased with Socialism country get healthy and prosperous again.
February 7, 2008 at 5:29 am
aravoth - You comment was brilliantly written and I think it represents what a lot of us true conservatives believe. The Revolution has begun.
February 7, 2008 at 5:31 am
I find the media’s coverage of the candidates absolutely horrific across the board. Ron Paul is the first US politician I remember ever saying ANYTHING that has real content. He has been totally marginalized by news coverage in the US.
You have a candidate who apparently was educated in the 15th century (Huckabee) who would be a laughing stock in any country with a real education system and the pundits glowingly praise him, while Paul gets nothing with his brilliant and clear vision.
February 7, 2008 at 5:33 am
One can only hope that Paul will linger and have momentum grow behind his ideas. It was a forgone conclusion years ago that Hillary Clinton would become President, it’s just a shame that she can’t do it with Paul as VP.
February 7, 2008 at 6:13 am
[...] (source: Doug Wead’s Blog) [...]
February 7, 2008 at 6:14 am
> With a total blackout from the media, with the other candidates laughing
> at him while he was on stage Ron Paul managed to bring more people
> into the the party than any “contracts with America” ever could.
Of course, these (and more) people will soon be leaving GOP en mass, in total disgust.
Rejection of Ron Paul is the suicide of Republican Party. Good riddance, too.
February 7, 2008 at 6:23 am
Amen to what avaroth had to say! Couldn’t have said it better
February 7, 2008 at 6:49 am
YES!! I agree. And I think Ron does too. I’ve heard him say several times that even if he doesn’t become president the “revolution” that has begun will continue to grow for years to come regardless of the outcome of the 08 election!
February 7, 2008 at 9:32 am
It’s good to see people putting the red pill in their mouths, but now it’s time to take a swig of water and swallow.
It’s not a “GOP vs. Dem” thing, it’s about waking up to the fact that the “establishment” is destroying this nation. The mainstream media knows what they’re doing. Both major parties know what they’re doing. They know that the things Ron Paul is saying are really popular (give or take a few issues). The establishment knows that their plan of first having the GOP knock the legs out while the Dems knock the nation completely on its butt cannot be interrupted by the likes of a Ron Paul and freedom-loving citizens that have woken up.
Keep pushing. Stop watching local news and cable news channels. Don’t read newspapers. Get 100 percent of your news from the Internet and sites like WhatReallyHappened.Com, PrisonPlanet.Com, InfoWars.Com. Tell everyone you know and even complete strangers behind counters about Ron Paul. Encourage everyone to stop getting their “programming” from the mainstream. The only way to take our freedom back is to wake everybody up. Once enough people have taken the red pill, there’s no going back.
February 7, 2008 at 11:21 am
[...] Wead on “How Ron Paul Won the Election.” In a Goldwater-effect sort of way, of [...]
February 7, 2008 at 11:29 am
The looming financial crisis is the only thing that will shake our fellow citizens out from their dreamy reality. As foreclosures mount and gas going to $4, consumption will be curtailed. Corporate profits will run dry, unemployment will skyrocket, people will watch other nations come and buy our companies.
Watch Washington do everything they can to stimulate the economy (read “buying votes”
during this election year.
But until then, the general American populous won’t get it.
February 7, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Pingish, I disagree. The financial crisis will be blamed on sub-prime mortgages, sun spots, the color of Hitlery’s shoes, etc. and unfortunately, since most people continue to get their programming from TV & print mainstream news, people will still not understand that the goal of the establishment is to cripple this nation so we’ll adopt the North American Union, a police state, etc.
They don’t really want to stimulate the economy, which is why the various ideas pushed by Dubya & the presidential candidates (except Ron Paul) are all useless.
We’re being victimized BY DESIGN. Having Dems & GOPers throwing rocks at each other serves as a tool of controlled opposition. They know people are getting pissed, so they switch back and forth between the same two corrupt organizations, using the media to tell us how great things are going to be when we switch to the other side.
Wake the BLEEP UP people!
February 7, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Mr. Wead - great article. I’ve forwarded the link to many of my disillutioned Ron Paul fellows. Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective. I remember you from years ago as well.
Mr./Ms. Aravoth - great comment! I’m especially saving this. Wish I knew who you were so I could shake your hand.
I am also sending this article and comments along to EVERY person I know who is guilty of selling out the GOP.
This is definitely not your daddy’s GOP. My dad was a strongly principled conservative Republican and is probably rolling around in his grave right now at what it has become.
February 7, 2008 at 4:17 pm
A wonderful and delightful commentary! Relect and consider that there is no hope in the republican party, nor in any other party for that matter. There is no hope in a violent revolution. Yet there is hope! And that is the hope of liberty returning to our America once again. The hope that liberty will not die as long as men and women cherish it, and, the life of quality it provides for all generations. Liberty has been dimished, and it has been dimished by the political parties that claim to protect it. It will be restored by the people who love it. And that resoration will take place as we, the people, abandon the political parties destined to destroy liberty, and embrace liberty as a core necessity of life and society. This is possible beyond the limitaions of, and without, party affiliation. If you dobut this, merely look at the ground swell of support for Ron Paul from all sections and belief systems in America. Liberty is bigger than political parties and elections. Liberty is the heartfelt yearning of all people who are invested in the future of their own lives, their families, and their neighbors…and this is why it spreads like wildfire. Looking to political parties to light that fire is futile. Political parties are rain storms on that fire. How many republicans complaining about John McCain today, will cave in to fear and vote for him next November to “protect” our country from Hillary or Obama? And the country will NOT be better off. Do not yield to fear, but proceed with hope in the movement inspired at the moment by Ron Paul. Leave the political parites and embrace liberty and liberty will be restored. I was a republican until after GW took office. I re-registered as unaffiliated. When Ron Paul came on the scene I re-registered as a republican only to vote for him in my state’s primary. And as soon as the primary is over I plan to re-register as unaffilicated. I encourage everyone else to do the same no matter what party you belong to now. It does not take long, and will send a message to the ruling elite. As each of us who love liberty, embrace liberty, we will be inspirations to each other and to those still looking for answers in this world. So do not look to the political parties, do not look to violence. Remain vigilant and guarded in the principles of Liberty, embrace it, make it a core part of your being, and always move forward and work to promote Liberty. That is where our hope lies, at least on this earth, and that is why we can always live and work and believe with hope! There is always hope! Just never misplace it!
February 7, 2008 at 9:14 pm
I’m confused by your post, you seem to believe the race is over…… This isn’t over yet…………
February 7, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I agree with aravoth but I’m not a conservative and will never describe myself that way. This is classical liberalism at is finest and I hate to tell Ron Paul and everyone else but this IS progressive politics. Free markets and sound money democratize wealth; Jefferson and Jackson knew this. The democratization of wealth was always progressive, since the conservatives have since Hamilton’s time tried to dismantle this effect in favor of the concentration of power in the elite. SEPARATION OF BUSINESS AND STATE is not a conservative value… it is a progressive one. That is why he is being rejected by the hybrid conservatives that have taken over both parties.
February 8, 2008 at 2:55 am
The Paulist Movement disappoints me, and I’m saying that as a conservative, although I’m sure some of you would likely label me as a so-called “neo-con.” First of all, isolationism died along with Woodrow Wilson. Strict constructivist interpretations of the Constitution to me smacks of fundamentalism, the very same kind of fundamentalism America has been fighting here and abroad. Let’s remember that Islamo-fascists have been attacking this nation’s people and interests since the 1970s. Islamo-fascism has been attacking America’s chief Middle Eastern ally for clearly longer than that, decades, actually. Which brings me to the Paulist Movement’s latent anti-Israeli bias. America has had a long history of defending freedom and liberty around the world. Israel represents one of the only true democracies in the Middle East. Her history is one of dogged self-determination, survival, and devotion to Biblical prophecy from the very same scripture shared by many conservatives.
The Paulists need to stop drinking the kool-aid. There were no victories for Ron Paul on Super Tuesday. There were only defeats. Stop wasting time and energy looking for “moral” victories and triumphs of principle over politics. The Paulist Movement is no different from Ralph Nadir’s (sic) Green Party run in 2004 or those Ross Perot debacles in ‘92 and ‘96. Ron Paul is NOT a conservative, but a libertarian in disguise and it needs to be said. His ideas are outside any tangible reality of 2008. The U.S. has entrenched foreign interests that must be served at all cost. The U.S. has enemies that must be fought and defeated at all cost as well. These are the realities that will never change. This whole campaign of Ron Paul’s is one big idealistic and nostalgic pipe dream that in my estimation is more reminiscent of what liberals within their own political agenda try to foist on America during every election year.
February 8, 2008 at 5:04 am
[...] Doug Wead (a former staffer in the Bush 41 Administration) details how Ron Paul has already won the election. [...]
February 9, 2008 at 5:58 am
Not to insult you or your motives DavidBlack, But before you run about painting Ron Paul supporters as Anti-isreali, you would do well to denote what my screen name means. I am Jewish, I am One of his biggest supporters. Don’t belive it? Check youtube.com/aravoth And your collectivist attitude is why the GOP is finished.
I worked and am working as hard as I can for Ron Paul. Becuase no matter what way you slice it, he is right. I’m also a verteran of the United States Army, A medic with the 1st Infantry division, and I never saw you “protecting our interests” in the sandbox with me.
February 9, 2008 at 8:04 am
DavidBlack2:
Such bile and blather, I could almost see the spittle flying from your angry lips. Sounds to me like you’re not pro-American at all. First off, what the hell did Ron Paul EVER say that was anti Israel? I haven’t heard a single mention of it from him. I did hear him say a lot of pro-American statements. And while I can’t bring myself to applaud you’re pathetic and feeble attempt at writing commentary, I do have to respect the fact that, even an imbecile has a right to drool someplace.
Let’s take a look at your opening statement. You wrote “The Paulist Movement disappoints me”. Now, the definition of “Disappoint” is:
1. To fail to fulfill the expectations or wishes of.
2. To defeat the fulfillment of.
You scribbling reads as if you have been completely against Ron Paul from the very beginning, that it smacks of fundamentalism, isolationism, and, an idealistic and nostalgic pipe dream.
So, if you were never for Ron Paul from the beginning, how on earth could you possibly be disappointed? Are you an idiot?
Talk about wasting time and energy! You bother to come here, a pro Ron Paul web site to give us a piece of your mind? What are you trying to prove, that you’re both stupid AND cruel? Congratulations, your endeavors have been met with success.
DavidBlack2, we may have been drinking the kool-aid, but you Sir, I suspect that you have been drinking from the cup of the town idiot.
You intentions and motives are so transparent as to be laughable. Please understand that no on here is fooled by your mediocre attempt. I for one, can imagine you sitting in a room full of people and thinking to yourself “I hope no one can see though me”.
February 9, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I invite you post a similar reaction to my own blog at http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com
Your reply expresses exactly the type of rabid and slavish devotion that I find in religious fundamentalists. It’s also fraught with the cliches often found on message board and in newsgroups, especially when someone counters the “groupthink” of a particular collective like this one. Excuse me for thinking that dissent would be encouraged here. I assure you that when I write there is no frothing or spitting. Critiques can be made in a concise and even-tempered manner, unless at least one of the participants decides to play rough.
Instead of refuting my contentions, you attack me personally, which is fine, I can take it. I simply fire right back.
Ron Paul does fail me and I’ve stated why. He’s also failed himself and his fringe base by mounting a weak and poor showing campaign. If you believe that the voting statistics in the primaries indicate success, I’d be interested in knowing what someone could think that. I’m sorry, I see nothing but failure.
Paul doesn’t have to explicitly state any animus toward Israel for me to know what he and those like him think, which would be the old hard-line isolationist paleo-cons and their libertarian pals. If it were up to people like the, Israel would be facing assured estruction without any help from the West.
Would you people want that blood on your hands, just like the way you sat idly by during WW2 and didn’t recognize that Jews were being slaughtered in European camps?
I also have to laugh at these incessant paeans to Barry Goldwater. That was the 1960s for crying out loud, the world faces different and more insidious threats. I would gladly accept a cold war foe like the USSR over these medieval savages that randomly destroy and kill innocent people everyday.
Sorry, I’m a conservative that believes in nationalism but not isolationism. I believe in spreading American hegemony, not subordinating it to collectives like the UN that’s pally friendly and anti-Israeli.
February 9, 2008 at 3:12 pm
There needs to be a edit feature on this blog. I prefer rewriting posts at will, not submitting first drafts for publication.
February 9, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Sorry, aravoth, you can’t support a candidate that’s advocating American isolationism and at the same time believe that Israel can survive threats from islamo-fascism on its own. One of the reasons Israel has been able to survive since 1948 is from the unconditional support of the US government in the form of military aid. That’s fact and I think you know that.
For you constructivists, I don’t read anywhere in Article 1 Section 8 where it stipulates how we determine who this nation’s enemies are. The American people and its interests were attacked on 9/11/01 and that’s all the reason I think is necessary to wage war with islamo-fascists.
And please, stop with this “Iraq didn’t attack us” nonsense. Iraq was once ruled by an islamo-fascist and he had to be taken out for the sake of our interests and the interests of our chief Middle Eastern ally Israel. I can only conclude that someone who isn’t in agreement with this harbors an anti-Israeli bias.
February 9, 2008 at 6:18 pm
One other thing, aravoth … like witnesstree, you’ve offered another hackneyed message board/news group attack ploy of suggesting deficiencies in a poster’s personal background that you can’t verify with facts. I don’t know why you would think that because we didn’t share a foxhole I could not have served my country or my country’s allies in another fashion. Let’s just say I saw enough killing in Israel attributed to islamo-fascism to justify my views.
And why any service to one’s country is a necessary pre-req for posting opinions about political figures is something I don’t recall from the Bill of Rights, for all you constructivists out there.
February 9, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Oh, poor David Black, I attacked him personally. Now you look even more foolish, like someone that can dish it out but can’t take it.
WWII? Why stop there, why don’t we debate every single world war in written history. Once we finish with those, we can move on to the minor wars, then the civil wars, and then finally how little Billy Higgins kicked your ass in 4th grade and took your lunch money.
No, Ron Paul didn’t say a single negative word about Israel, or any other country for that matter. So you think it’s all right to put words into his mouth for him, right? I wasn’t even born during WWII, so please tell us, with all your highbrow and obviously superior (Sic) brain power, how on earth could we possibly have the Jewish blood on our hands from WWII, or, from some future war that hasn’t even happened?
Then you take it upon yourself to judge us all as religious fundamentalists, old hard-line isolationist, paleocons, etc. Really, you should go back and read what you have written.
I read your blog and how you write about yourself in the third person. He’s been called “CANTANKEROUS, INTOLERANT, IRASCIBLE, WITTY, IGNORANT, INSIGHTFUL, AND DOGMATIC”. You try to set yourself up as some commentator of wit and wisdom. Your pseudo- intellectualism is merely that, pseudo. Meaning, you are a phony.
Okay everybody, listen up. The next Israeli that dies from a terrorist attack is David Black’s fault, because he wasn’t there on the front lines blasting away. The blood is on his hands.
Yes, I play rough, but get a clue, I’m not playing with you at all, the gloves are off! Yes, I am personally attacking you, little Davy Black. However, I’m certainly not inviting others to do so, because you’re, CANTANKEROUS, INTOLERANT, IRASCIBLE, WITTY, IGNORANT, INSIGHTFUL, AND DOGMATIC.
And remember this, if you’re going to write, and publish it publicly, use a dictionary to cross check the meaning of the words you use. That way, you won’t come off sounding like a driveling idiot. You see David, I’m trying to help you to keep up your façade, so your mediocrity isn’t exposed for all the world to see, so you’re not standing out in public naked, your tiny genitalia flapping in the breeze. And with my help, hopefully, the voices that you listen to in your head, berating each other, won’t blossom into full-blown paranoia and schizophrenia.
February 9, 2008 at 7:12 pm
David, now you’re talking facts? You must be kidding me! Let’s go back to your original post. You wrote: Her history (Israel) is one of dogged self-determination, survival, and devotion to Biblical prophecy from the very same scripture shared by many conservatives”.
Biblical prophecy! You go on to attack Aravoth with “suggesting deficiencies in a poster’s personal background that you can’t verify with facts”. Somebody please, bring me a bucket so I can puke.
All right David, please prove to us all, how biblical prophecy is fact?
No hurry, plenty of time.
February 9, 2008 at 7:44 pm
I note how you use another typical ploy of desperate posters … you twist words and meanings to suit your present purpose. In fact, your methods are that of a typical troll.
What a shame that you have to take personally attacks on your beloved political hero. How much does RP pay you to personally trash those that criticize him?
I asked aravoth to verify with facts about my service to my country and my country’s allies, because he’s the one that suggested that since I didn’t share a foxhole with him in the army, my views on the military are not valid.
It is fact that Biblical decree allows for Israel’s right to exist and all the land it presently occupies. It is fact that without US military aid, Israel would have been destroyed by now.
Please tell me that you isolationists would support cutting off military aid from Israel?
Tell me that you would immediately support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq?
And please explain for me how anyone can consider Ron Paul’s campaign as anything but an utter failure based on his performance in the recent primaries. Can you read numbers? I guess not, yet the finger is pointed at me for being intellectually deficient.
I can read figures. I can judge success from failure. I can also see blind zealotry when I see it. That’s the Paulist movement. A crusade of fools and malcontents who don’t fit into the mainstream.
I also know how isolationists think, and RP supporters are isolationists, like most all paleo-cons and libertarians. Most all paleo-cons, like the most famous one, Patrick J. Buchanan, are anti-Zionist as well.
I no great fan of mcCain, Romney, or Huckabee, either, but I will subordinate my personal feelings and principles for the good of the country.
Paulists would gladly slice off their noses to spite their faces, sit out the election, write in the name of Ron Paul, and ensure a Democrat win.
Right, that’s really smart. Four years of Hillary or Obama so you can stand up for principle. That attitude is foolish and selfish.
And MY intelligence is questioned? You must be joking.
February 9, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Scripture that verifies Israel’s claim to its land:
Genesis 15:18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates–”
Genesis 35:10-12 God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel.” So he named him Israel. And God said to him, “I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.”
Deuteronomy 34:4 “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, ‘I will give it to your offspring’”
2 Chronicles 6:5-6 ‘Since the day that I brought My people from the land of Egypt, I did not choose a city out of all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man for a leader over My people Israel; but I have chosen Jerusalem that My name might be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.’
February 9, 2008 at 7:58 pm
witnesstree: please tell me where it is written that I must be first “for” someone before I can be disappointed in them?
Liberals disappoint me everyday, for example, and I’ve never been “for” them.
Your logic is puzzling, but then, for a troll, it’s par for the course, I guess.
February 9, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Isolationists, like the ones that believed we shouldn’t have been lifting a finger to help Jews in Europe, had blood on their hands for not supporting the Allied war effort.
Isolationists, like the ones that believe we shouldn’t be lifting a finger to help Jews in Israel, have blood on their hands for not supporting the use of US military aid for Israel.
This is how it works, folks.
February 9, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Hey Davy, now you’re slipping, trying to rationalize with rhetoric what you can’t accomplish with logic and reason.
I’m not twisting the meaning of any word, but I will tell you what is happening. You keeping making public statements that you can’t back up with ANY facts at all. You don’t even try to confront the issues. You just use bombastic sophistry to keep spinning in circles, hoping those that see through you will eventually fall off.
You wrote “It is fact that Biblical decree allows for Israel’s right to exist” Who’s sounding like a fundamentalist now? And how is this proof of facts?
Davy, I’m sure Santa Clause brought you something for Christmas when you were a kid. Does that prove his existence? Or maybe you found a multicolored egg that the Easter Bunny shat out, does that make its existence FACT?
And what about the group True Torah Jews Against Zionism : here’s their web page http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
I’m sure they too can produce facts that are diametrically opposed to what you think, or write. However, the truly educated wouldn’t call these facts at all. They would call it mere dogma.
But that’s not really what’s bothering you, is it? What really gets your panties tied in a knot is the fact that you’ve come up against someone that is smarter than you. I can out think you, out write you, and out reason you, and it just clenches your guts, doesn’t it? You realize that I have trapped and ensnared you with your own words, and you can’t find a way out, other than to go on the defensive.
You call yourself an American, yet you haven’t written one single sentence that is pro America. You’ve written much that is pro Israel. So really, where do your loyalties lay?
You invited me to discourse on your personal web blog, but first, please answer intelligently ALL of the questions I have asked without going in some opposite direction. You need to stay focused, or you come off looking ridicules.
And by the way: I see from your blog and postings that you don’t know whom you want to vote for. How can we take you seriously if you yourself hold no allegiance to anyone, or anything?
February 9, 2008 at 8:41 pm
“He opposes the Iraq War and any other war, unless we are attacked.”
This is a quote from a Paulist on his own website, which reveals the fallacy and shortsightedness of this allegedly brilliant statesman (not “politician,” as the Paulist believes)
I suppose Ron Paul forgets what happened to America on 9/11/01, that islamo-fascists attacked this country, a culmination of over twenty year’s worth of attacks on this country’s citizens. Ron Paul forgets the first attack on the WTC in 1993 as well.
Do I want someone as forgetful as Ron Paul to be my President?
February 9, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Well hell David, you’ve got it all figured out, why don’t YOU run for president?
February 9, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Witnesstree, when did trolling become a form of legitimate discourse?
The fact is that I’m trashing your beloved hero who is, in fact, a failure.
Just check the primary results. Ron Paul has a measly 14 delegates, all of which will run like scared rabbits at convention time, if not before.
How does it feel to back a losing horse?
February 9, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Please, enlighten us all of your many success stories. You have our undivided attention. It is wonderful to finally meet a perfect person, someone who is infallible.
February 9, 2008 at 8:54 pm
I could never run for any elected office, because I despise the requisite glad handing and schmoozing for favors.
And guess what, your beloved hero is no different from any other politician in the schmoozing and glad handing department
February 9, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Sssss, everybody, don’t disturb David, he’s formulating a hypothesis, based on fundamental beliefs he doesn’t believe in, as back up by biblical prophecy.
February 9, 2008 at 9:02 pm
witnesstree, you’ve proven yet again that you can’t defend your own candidate on his own merits. But really, how can you? What does Ron Paul offer but a balm for a fringe element of disaffected paleo-cons and libertarians who hate George Bush and his war “for oil” and the “zionists in Israel”?
That’s why he has only 14 delegates. Luckily, people like his followers comprise such a tiny minority that they barely register a blip on the national scene.
February 9, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Oh David, how interesting. You do say the most wittiest things (insert female cackling here)
Please, do carry on while I dunk my crumpets in my tea.
February 9, 2008 at 9:06 pm
One does not have to be a fundamentalist to abide by the claim that Israel has a right to exist and claim land based on scripture written by Jewish scholars thousands of years ago..
But then, if you are an atheist, I could see where any acknowledgment of religious scripture automatically warrants being painted as a fundamentalist.
February 9, 2008 at 9:11 pm
“How can we take you seriously if you yourself hold no allegiance to anyone, or anything?”
My first allegiance is to my flesh and blood and then to the country in which I was born. I certainly don’t require validation or acceptance from strangers on an internet message board.
Why do you speak in terms of “we”? Why can’t you stand as an individual apart from a collective?
February 9, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Please David, recount for us your manly exploits of wading through the bodies and blood of the terrorists that you killed while defending Israel.
You do spin a good yarn.
February 9, 2008 at 9:12 pm
“(insert female cackling here)”
This certainly explains a lot.
February 9, 2008 at 9:14 pm
When did I say I killed anyone? Please, provide the exact quote.
February 9, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Why should I accommodate you, when you can’t even logically answer one of my questions?
And, are you so stupid as to not recognize sarcasm when you read it? According to your web blog, you’re a raconteur, and a insightful. I apologize if I went over your head. I will try to dumb down my responses so you can keep up.
February 9, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Leave the comedy to experts.
The thing is, I’m asking because you’re clearly lying about what I said.
February 9, 2008 at 9:28 pm
David Black, HE’S BEEN CALLED CANTANKEROUS, INTOLERANT, IRASCIBLE, WITTY, IGNORANT, INSIGHTFUL, AND DOGMATIC. HE IS ALSO A RACONTEUR.
Well, you got one part right, you are ignorant.
February 9, 2008 at 9:31 pm
aravoth wrote: “Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing, period. ”
Are you a lib or a conservative? That’s OK, I’ve known both to say the same thing, as both stripes share one thing, a hatred for Israel.
Islamo-fascists attacked the US on 9/11. Afghanistan and Iraq are islamo-fascist strongholds. So are Syria and Iran. Hopefully, we’ll get to wipe them out, too, in time.
February 9, 2008 at 9:35 pm
I think the record shows that in lieu of anything truly substantial to say in support of a failed Presidential candidate, a poster like witnesstree will subsequently launch an unrelenting attack on anyone who dares to criticize said failed candidate.
February 9, 2008 at 9:38 pm
David wrote “I don’t know why you would think that because we didn’t share a foxhole I could not have served my country or my country’s allies in another fashion. Let’s just say I saw enough killing in Israel attributed to islamo-fascism to justify my views”.
This would lead one to believe that you were there “Let’s just say I saw enough killing in Israel attributed to islamo-fascism to justify my views”.
So tell us David, exactly what fashion did you participate?
February 9, 2008 at 9:59 pm
David, are you taking a power nap?
February 9, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Well folks, I guess that just about wraps it up for the David Black hour. Please join him next time from Afghanistan, where he’ll be in the trenches with the troops, reporting from his armchair.
February 9, 2008 at 10:38 pm
“Please David, recount for us your manly exploits of wading through the bodies and blood of the terrorists that you killed while defending Israel.”
You can be an eyewitness to death and destruction without being a participant firing rockets and hand grenades, sweetie.
I also lost relatives in the Holocaust, so I know why Israel deserves every consideration the United States can offer. It’s too bad you libs and paleo-cons don’t have an appreciation for history and what people have gone through just to survive.
It’s really sad that you have such short memories.
February 9, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Would someone please cue the sad violin music for David.
February 10, 2008 at 2:17 am
Interesting that you would discredit the very facts that you literally demanded to be presented earlier in this thread.
But what should be expected from a partisan hack and a message board troll?
At least I am comforted by the knowledge that I don’t have to kiss the derriere of any political candidate(s).
February 10, 2008 at 6:03 am
WOW!
Nice long debate between Mr. DavidBlack, and the others here.
Of course Mr. Black seems to be the kind of person that will go out and call any negative statement about Israel “anti-Israel”: I am suprised that he hasn’t used the term “anti-semitic” yet.
Say what you will about Israel, but please stop the tired argument over a right to exist based on an Old Testament justification. Even if it were true (see below), it only applies to those whose scripture it is, and whose God endowed them with the land. Even the passages Mr. Black cites make it clear that there were inhabitants in Palestine before it was promised to the Israelites. Why should the words of one religion’s god sway anyone who is not even of that religion in our secular world?
A much better argument would be that Zionism wanted Palestine as a Jewish homeland, fought for it (sometimes fair, sometimes not, as happens in all wars), and won. That’s it, and face the facts. In the history of the world might has and does make right.
(I say Zionism, because not all Jews wanted a jewish homeland in this way. To many, it was God’s land to give, and God’s land to take, both of which he did countless times. And only for God to return the land to his people, not for their hand to take on their own).
In one way, DavidBlack is right though, and that is that Ron Paul did commit an anti Israel sin (using Black’s way of thinking): he openly stated, IMO for the first time ever for any political pres. candidate, that Israel owns 300 nuclear weapons.
That is a sin, because US official policy is to deny this fact as proven. For to do so would cause serious problems with th Nuclear Proliferation Act, Sec 530. So indeed, for that sin, Ron Paul must be anti-Israel! Perhaps, in the interest of freedom Mr. Black, you can join those Americans, including his adoptive parents, who seek an end to the ongoing mistreatment of Mordechai Vanunu.
One last question Mr. Black:
You state: “and devotion … from the very same scripture shared by many conservatives.”
Oh really? Assuming it is the very same scripture, then pray tell why it is ILLEGAL for a non-Jewish person in Israel to hand a Bible (meaning OT+NT) to a jewish Israeli?
Such an action is legally construed in Israel as an attempt to convert a Jewish person from his religion, and that is an illegal act in Israel. If you do not believe this visit Israel, and then try this in front of a policeman, whereupon you will enjoy free room and board.
February 10, 2008 at 2:06 pm
What an intersting arguement going on here. I offer a few facts for your consideration that, once understood, will aid you in a clearer discussion, which may just help you have a meaningful dialogue. First, there were more gentile non-combatants than Jews killed by the Nazis. What impact should that have on etablishing nations, for whom, and to what extent the U.S. should support them. Second, Ron Paul is not an isolationist. For what will be, not the last time I’m certain, he is a non-interventionist. His policy for going to war is that when the federal government takes the U.S. into war, it follow the laws governing our government…the Constitution. If the U.S. is to go to war for reasons other than to defend against a direct attack, the Congress is to debate, decide, and make a declaration of war. Read his writings and this will clear up that misconception rapidly. Third, before assigning the designation of facist to “Islamo”s, or anyone else, try to understand what facism means. I hesitate to say this, but with a clear understanding of what facist means, it is easier to apply that term to the Bush administration’s actions than it is to the “Islamo”s. Fourth, throwing terms like facist, racist, sexist, WASPist, or any “ist” is not conducive to productive dialogue. While emotional arguing can be tons of fun, try a factual approach. When done right you will be surprised at the outcomes, and you can even discuss matters such as Biblical prophecy…but that should be discussed in a seperate venue dealing with Biblical prophecy. It is a great way to run a religion, but not a country!
February 10, 2008 at 2:14 pm
teynnensweig: I don’t know if you’d call what was going on between myself and witnesstree a debate. It seemed to me little more than a troll attacking a Non-Believer in RP.
By scripture, I was previously referring only to the OT, which Jews and Christians do read and try to follow.
As for the NT, it is relevant to the point I will try to make now about Christians.
Conservatives in America, if they truly are conservatives, are typically Jewish or Christian people. Sorry, atheists don’t count in my book. I also don’t know about muslims and I don’t care. I concern myself with the majority Judeo-Christian culture. Christians cite the NT significance of Israel and the Middle East symbolizing the focal point of Armageddon. This is why Christian evangelicals hold Israeli such high regard and support US military support against islamo-fascists.
“that Israel owns 300 nuclear weapons.”
These are allegations only and typical of a latent anti-Israeli and isolationist. Why doesn’t Paul admit that these are allegations only of Israel’s nukes?
Why? The answer is clear and I’ve said before why.
I’ve been right about everything I’ve said in previous posts about Ron Paul. I’ve heard people like him for years. You people see him as a savior, I see him as a pariah. Fortunately, I will be vindicated because this failed attempt at a “revolution” of his will crash and burn soon.
14 delegates and counting. Way to go, people.
February 10, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Let me add that in the US, many Jews are liberals and anti-Israeli. They sympathize with pallys because at the root of their distaste for Israeli hegemony is their hatred for American imperialism which in their estimation drives Israeli foreign policy. They call Israel an apartheid state and tolerate islamo-fascists as “freedom fighters” who are operating out of self-defense.
This whole situation has made strange bedfellows out of libs, paleo-cons, and libertarians.
This is where Ron Paul comes in. Capturing the hearts of the paleo-con and libertarian fringe, he stokes their animus toward Israel by repeating unfounded allegations because he’s a POLITICIAN who knows what to say to get some votes.
Thankfully, his appeal and his constituency is still minimal.
February 10, 2008 at 3:10 pm
murebil:
Preferring to label RP as a “non-interventionist” rather than an “isolationist” is as laughable as liberals wanting to be called progressives. The packing on the outside may change but the crap inside stays the same.
I would greatly appreciate that you refrain from lecturing me on how to conduct a discussion. If you don’t care for how I choose to express myself and my views, then kindly withdraw. I am not interested in finding common ground or reaching understandings with whom I disagree. The way I see it, this country is at war and the only way this country will defeat this enemy is to meet or exceed their level of brutality. It’s also laughable to believe that if we treat prisoners with dignity and fairness, our enemies will suddenly turn the other cheek. You must remember that we are dealing with a savage and medieval culture that will not stop until all Jews and Christian either convert to allah or die in resistance.
That’s fact, sir, whether or not your idealistic view of the world allows you to acknowledge that.
I see the world for what it is, not for what I hope it could be like.
The Allies in WW2, for example, did not defeat Japan by talking and being nice to them. The Allies developed a more brutal and destructive weapon and won decisively.
That’s how you defeat your enemy.
Resisting an truly apt term like “islamo-fascism” indicates to me that you prefer to humanize the enemy of the US and Israel. That’s OK, that’s your privilege. I know that there is an abundance of literature written on this subject that supports the term as accurate and timely.
The fact is, the US Congress gave Bush the authority to wage war against islamo-fascism, so why there’s any dispute over that remans a mystery. That same Congress each year since 2002 has voted to maintain a consistent military budget along with the debate you deem is lacking.
At the core, kind sir, is what you won’t admit here. The results of the US foreign policy under the Bush Admin have not been to your liking so you’ll say anything or construct any rationale to discredit it.
You see this quirky Texan mount his Quixotic crusade and it makes you feel good about yourself. One day you are going to wake up and it won’t be there. Ron Paul will soon realize that tilting at windmills has been a money wasting sham at the expense of people like you.
February 10, 2008 at 3:22 pm
“YES!! I agree. And I think Ron does too. I’ve heard him say several times that even if he doesn’t become president the “revolution” that has begun will continue to grow for years to come regardless of the outcome of the 08 election!”
A few days ago, a Rob Dubinski wrote this. I don’t know Rob personally, but he seems like a nice enough guy, albeit a bit misguided and perhaps, bamboozled at the same time.
When will you people learn to stop being entranced by politicians and their allegedly “heart felt” pledges to “change” what YOU don’t like about this country? You need to see them as ad pitchmen first, leaders second.
When will you learn that people do not enter politics for altruistic reasons? It’s never about YOU, it’s all about THEM. Any allusions to an on-going “revolution” is simply another ploy to drain money from donors to maintain the coterie of hangers-on, private jets, and rubber chicken dinners.
I will likely end up voting for McCain in November because I do not want closet marxists like hillary or obama to lead this nation with tax increases and expanded social entitlements. I don’t especially care for John McCain, but he’s a sight better than the aforementioned. At least he’s a war hero.
That’s how you have to look at it, conservatives.
February 10, 2008 at 4:11 pm
teynnensweig:
One must factor in the imperative of establishing a Jewish refuge/homeland in the wake of the Holocaust. That should have been enough reason for anyone. The fact that the pallys and their islamo-fascist sympathizers in hamas, hezbollah, etc have placed Israel under a death warrant is another sufficient reason for anyone who claims they have a heart to side with Israel unilaterally and unconditionally.
February 10, 2008 at 5:36 pm
“That may very well be but there was only one clear winner in the confusing GOP nominating contest and it was not John McCain. The winner was Ron Paul. And the effects of his win will be felt for years to come.”
I don’t understand how an obviously intelligent man could make such a misguided statement in view of the facts. This must be the effect of drinking the kool-aid.
I also don’t understand how the GOP race could appear as “confusing,” either. You have had three viable competitors (now pared down to two) and several fringe candidates that never had a prayer. Ron Paul was/is among those fringe candidates.
February 10, 2008 at 6:16 pm
davidblack2………..you, and other Compromisers like you, are the reason my descendants will, more than likely, live in a “slave state’.
One who votes for a “lesser of 2 evils” still votes for evil. I used to do that, also, but no more. I’ve been voting for 40 years and, until this year, never had the opportunity to vote for a genuine Patriot.
I’ll never again make the mistakes at the ballot box I’ve made before.
Talk about a wasted vote……….McCain has as much chance of beating either Hillary or Obama as you and I do. The Democrats will rip his stupid head off, over and over again.
Other than RP, they’re all the same. Just a matter of how far they bend you over, how often the ram it to you and how deep you get it.
February 11, 2008 at 12:20 am
Well for Mr. Black’s statement that only allegations have been made about the Israeli nukes. I did put the name of Mordechai Vanunu in there.
IF you know anything about the palling that went on between South Africa and Israel in the 80s, and about the large sales of uranium from the one to the other, coupled with all the other evidence about the bombs, it is a fact.
The only thing still making it an “allegation” is the fact that Israel herself has not admitted ownership (as if they would!) and our government. We do not do so for the very problems I cite with Sec. 530 of the Act in my orig. post. Anyone other than Mr. Black, who will never admit this anyway, just Wikipedia “Mordecachai Vanunu” and read up on the Negev Nuclear Center in that entry.
As to calling Israel an apartheid state, I did not do that. However, if one wants to know how this paragon of democracy treats its own citizens, one need look no further than the plight of Israel’s Sephardim. If you are of Sephardi stock in Israel, you would know what “KOOSHIM” meens.
And lets not forget the immoral treatment of over 100,000 sephardic children in the 50’s, where they were used for secret medical experiments, the consequences of which still haunt these people today.
One last point about the horrors of WWII giving the correct rationale for establishing Israel: If that were truly correct, how come more members of the Jewish religions by far live outside of Israel than inside? Never since 1948 has this been different, so the great number of Jews that never wanted to go to Israel, seem not to have felt the need to do so for safety.
(And please do not mention Andrej Sakharov as an ex. of Jewish fate in the USSR, for he lived a wonderful life in the Soviet Union on the Rubelskaja south of Moscow for many years — down the street from Shostakovitch. He was not banished from there because of his religion, but because of what he did).
February 11, 2008 at 6:23 am
I propose gentleman that trying to debate David Black is like trying to convert a Muslim to Judaism. He claims to be an American, but an American always puts America first. This doesn’t seem to be the case with David, as is blatantly obvious from his posts.
Let us review:
David’s first post: The Paulist Movement disappoints me, and I’m saying that as a conservative, although I’m sure some of you would likely label me as a so-called “neo-con.”
Let’s take a look at your opening statement. You wrote “The Paulist Movement disappoints me”. Now, the definition of “Disappoint” is:
1. To fail to fulfill the expectations or wishes of.
2. To defeat the fulfillment of.
He’s quite clearly anti-Ron Paul, so why is he disappointed? I asked, but never got a definitive answer. Yet he said I was twisting his words. An interesting case study, this David.
He’s already on the defensive by the last part of his first sentence “although I’m sure some of you would likely label me as a so-called “neo-con”.
Is he prejudging us, or is he trying to cover himself for the fallout his post might, and did receive?
Next he writes: Strict constructivist interpretations of the Constitution (i.e. Ron Paul & his followers views) to me smacks of fundamentalism. He then goes on to call him, and us, Isolationists, Fundamentalist, to harbor latent anti-Israeli bias, that The Paulists need to stop drinking the kool-aid” and that “There were no victories for Ron Paul on Super Tuesday. There were only defeats and for us to.” Stop wasting time and energy looking for “moral” victories and triumphs of principle over politics” and that “His ideas are outside any tangible reality” and that “Ron Paul’s (and our campaign) is one big idealistic and nostalgic pipe dream.
Does he expect to insult people and their ideals, which happen to be the same as Ron Paul’s, and not be offended by it?
Then he decides to slander other people’s fathers, much like my own, by writing:
“Would you people want that blood on your hands, just like the way you sat idly by during WW2 and didn’t recognize that Jews were being slaughtered in European camps”?
Dissect this: “You people”, “Your hands” and “You sat”. My father fought in that war and took part in the liberation of two concentration camps, not to mention his efforts in helping to end the war. But according to David, it is US, that has the blood of the victims on our hands. A very interesting sickness David has, reflecting the guilt, retroactively on two generations after the fact.
You see, for David, it’s not enough that America sends almost half of all foreign aid to Israel, not to mention the billions of dollars worth of military aid and armaments, it’s not enough that our American men and women were, and are being killed and maimed for life. It’s not enough for him, he wants to come here and insult people, and rub it in their faces, and gloat, and act smug.
And then, when he realized that he couldn’t reason his way out of his own self-entrapment, he turned to the last trump card he had. Sympathy. He writes:
“I also lost relatives in the Holocaust” No mention of all the Americans that lost their lives trying to free the concentration camps, only makes mention of his relatives. So he reverts to trying to milk the collective consciences of the American people, because he states “so I know why Israel deserves every consideration the United States can offer”.
As if what we have given, which is already far and away over the top of what any other country in the entire written history of the world has done for Israel, still isn’t enough. Should anyone disagree with him, then they, in HIS own words, harbor latent anti-Israeli bias, which is the exact same thing, at least to him, as being anti-semantic.
Here is my prognosis of David’s mental illness. He is obviously a self-loathing individual with a low sense of self-esteem, with an underlying obsession of doing extravagant or grand things. In short, a megalomaniac, and possibly bi-polar disorder. He becomes agitated at the thought that someone could possible be more intelligent than himself. A sign of a super inflated ego, yet with no real underlying moral character to support that mental structure. Therefore, David tends to “lash out” as it were, to the general public. Blindly swinging and striking at anything in order to get the desired affect, so that, to him, it justifies his circle of actions. In other words, his ends justify his means. This can be seen in his child like over-use of the word “Troll” as an example. He’ll use the word obsessively, believing that the recipient of the slander is actually affected by the expression.
My advice is this. I believe that we should all try to humor David, so that he doesn’t go completely over the edge and become a danger to himself and others. When these type people and their personality disorders are made to fully see who that are, they tend to regress within themselves, or worse, go on a killing rampage though the subway system, let’s not forget the Bernard Goetz incident.
In conclusion: I think the best way to handle David, is to agree with everything he says. Simple responses like “Oh David, you’re so insightful” or “Gosh David, you nailed that one on the head”. Eventually, we’ll affectively pacify his easily bruised ego and he’ll go in search of more and heightened praise from other diverse sources, fully delusional that he has made a difference, or changed anyone’s mind.
February 11, 2008 at 7:58 am
Teynnensweig:
Indeed, Israel has a long way to go to overcome its own hypocrisy. There is this collective “poor me” syndrome that seems to permeate the Israel psych. For a country that is always espousing human rights, it was less than two years ago that they actually outlawed slavery. Up to then, human slavery was openly allowed, as is well documented from the many thousands of innocent Russian women that have been forced into prostitution under the guise of getting a good paying job. Here’s a one of many videos about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJnnd7vavfI
Still today, slavery exist in Israel in huge numbers, yet the authorities tend to turn a blind eye, or occasionally bust a few of these brothels for the papers and media, while in the meantime, the criminals get off with hardly a slap on the wrist. While these poor women are raped on a daily basis, infected with all kinds of STD’s, and psychologically scarred for the rest of their lives, if they live through their ordeal at all.
Another example would be the criminals that commit crimes in America, than claim Jewish ancestry and find asylum in Israel, as was the case with Samuel Sheinbein. You can read the Washington Post article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/feb99/sheinbein27.htm
Further to the point is many Israelis tend to look on anyone that is not of Jewish blood as a Nazi as can be seen in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJZIRvBn1bE Oddly enough, this one particular video always manages to get deleted from YouTube’s site. Curious indeed.
This is not to say that all Jewish people believe or condone such behavior. There are many that don’t. Typically you see this in a more hard core Zionist that believes in Israel’s right, not only to exist, but is superior over all other races.
And while I personally do not believe in the murder of any race of people, I find it hard to feel any sense of guilt over the six million Jews that died during the second-world war (Since I wasn’t even born then, you may as well ask me to feel guilty over the first caveman that clubbed another over his head). Not because I am cold hearted, but because I see other injustices that have and are being done in the world by many Jewish people that they will not recognize or accept responsibility for. The Russian revolution is a prime example of this. It is well documented that the Jewish influence that perpetuated and financed the revolution was dominated by mostly Jewish leaders, like Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, whose real name was Lev Davidovich Bronstein, Vladimir Lenin, and over three hundred of the top ruling class of the Russian elite, after the Revolution. As can read about here, in an article by the
Institute for Historical Review http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
The Russian Revolution resulted in the deaths of over 20 million non-Jewish people. Some would say mostly Christians.
There are some that will always try to gloss over, or flat out deny any of this, even in the face of overwhelming documented evidence, videos, articles, and books on the subject (most of these books written by Jewish authors). They will resort to calling people anti-Semites.
Which leaves me with this one final thought. If, as some of the more hard core Zionist believe, that their God is the one true God, and only Jewish people can belong to this God, as quoted in the Talmud. Then it should bewilder any non-Jewish person why everyone else should suffer for Israel, and pay for their welfare and defense, when we, all the non-Jewish people, are not even accepted, or welcomed to sit at that table? If their God is right, and all others are wrong, what’s in it for us? We’re all going to hell, or some other such place anyway, right? Currently, the Jewish people in America make up less than 2% of the American population. Where’s the democracy in this?
February 11, 2008 at 10:58 am
Witlesstree: I put my own flesh and blood first. I am a Jew first and an American second.
In addition to your trolling, you’ve now resorted to junk science explanations to attack me, when all along, the fact remains that you can’t explain why you or anyone else here can back a failed candidate who has absolutely zero chance of winning the Presidency. You cannot account for his dismal showing and cannot acknowledge that you and everyone else here represent a fringe element that’s very strange and misguided. I’ve read some posts at the Daily Paul so I know.
I’ve invaded your cozy little world and have held up a mirror to this ridiculous crusade.
You also can’t read, witlesstree. The “blood on the hands” remark was about isolationists. You support Ron Paul, who is an isolationist. “Non-interventionist”? Cut me a break with that nonsense. I know what you people mean.
You are NOT conservatives, that’s for sure.
Meanwhile Ron Paul’s closing in on the front runner with a whopping 14 delegates!
February 11, 2008 at 11:28 am
teynnensweig:
I’ve heard that unfortunate tale from the 50s. I’m not going to indict a country like Israel based on that, as it has done far more good for ALL Jews than bad. Sephardim have always been considered the lower caste Jews (conversely, the Ashkenazim are the Brahmins) so there’s a history there and it still exists today. Inter-tribal feuds … what can be said about it? It’s no different than Shiites and Sunnis.
Your claim that more Jews do not live in Israel as compared to those that do is questionable, I’d have to see some figures. But anyway, why is that significant?
All this is doing is steering away the focus of my main point: Isolationists like Ron Paul would gladly sell out Israel to the islamo-fascists if it were up to him.
February 11, 2008 at 11:32 am
“Simple responses like “Oh David, you’re so insightful” or “Gosh David, you nailed that one on the head”. ”
It’s kind of like how you all happily bow before Doug Wead, right?
Sounds rather hypocritical to me.
February 11, 2008 at 12:35 pm
“Inter-tribal feuds … what can be said about it?”
It should be INTRA-tribal feuds.
That’s not being said to excuse what was done, but earning hundreds of millions in foreign aid to conduct x ray experiments where the results would be unknown presented an acceptable risk to a cash strapped country.
February 11, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Dear fellow (true) American Patriots.
I have been censored on this board. Actually, not just censored, they just flat didn’t post it. And even though I understand why they did it, I don’t agree with it. I know that it wasn’t to protect the feelings of one certain individual here. However, I can’t abide with censorship of any type. There are things that people should know.
If you are interested in my response to Teynnensweig, please feel free to email me, and I will gladly send you the transcript of that post. My email address is: Witnesstree1776@yahoo.com < if you don’t see an email address here, than that too has been censored.
To the Moderator of this page:
I don’t hold any animosity towards you censoring what I wrote, I do fully understand why you did it. But I will not be making any more posts here or visiting the page due to that censorship.
Best Regards to all…well, maybe not ALL.
February 11, 2008 at 10:01 pm
I knew it would only a matter of time before a paleo-con let their true colors show in expressing their deep seated resentment of Israel and for Jews in general.
I would submit that if not for the Zionists and American backing Israel would have been destroyed by now. There are just too many Jews in the USA and in Israel who have this cowardly notion that if they are nice to those that have declared jihad, then all hostilities would cease. Such thinking is a quick route to extinction.
My major DISAPPOINTMENT in Ron Paul’s campaign is that it unfortunately attracts those that think Israel is the cause of most of the problems in the Middle East and that the US should stop supporting her. I know how paleo-cons and libertarians think. I’ve been encountering them for years and they all play from the same script. The Paul campaign appeals directly to that crowd and that’s fact.
February 12, 2008 at 4:23 pm
[...] The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election [...]
February 12, 2008 at 5:14 pm
[...] The Mouse that roared: Why Ron Paul won the election Does your candidate tell you to march on Washington and exercise your constitutional rights? [...]
February 12, 2008 at 6:15 pm
I consider myself a US citizen and an American patriot. I live in the US, grew up here, studied its history, and believe in the principles that formed the basis of our government. Protection of individual citizens and rights of citizens by limited government and enforcing the rule of law - separation of powers - and separation of private interests (e.g. religion) from public interests (e.g. government regulation, taxation) chief among them.
Therefore, as an American citizen who believes in the founding principles of America, I am motivated by American concerns and ONLY American concerns. This is why I am attracted to Ron Paul; I believe he is motivated by American concerns and by upholding principles that have established and can safeguard those concerns.
On foreign policy - I default to my concern for America and its citizens. I am turned off by anyone who would put another nation’s concerns before our own concerns. This blog is rife with demands and suggestions to support Israel and all of the horrors that would befall Israel if we didn’t support them with our money, our weapons, our votes in the UN, our resources etc.
Who cares. If Israel is a viable nation then they should be able to exist on their own steam. If they want resources they should give something of value for them - and I see no value flowing into the US from Israel, only value flowing from the US to Israel. Far far more interest would I have in supporting Japan who spends hundreds of billions bolstering our fluttering dollar. If Japan doesn’t need our help, great. But that fact provides no excuse for us to fritter monetary resources to justify increasing taxes. I thought this was a staple conservative belief?
Speaking of staple conservative beliefs, what happened to the notion that the US Govt. is subservient to its citizenry? That money and power are obtained by its citizens and for its citizens? I agree with Ron Paul that we should take the money we are spending on Israel, the many Arab and Muslim countries in the Middle East, and elsewhere around the world to prop up wasteful oil production, reduce the taxes that are levied to generate those monies and promote private energy research here instead. Don’t conservatives keep talking about free markets? Doesn’t that mean NOT spending governments funds, and taxing to generate those funds, on concerns of private industry? NOT subsidizing? NOT pork barrelling private development (including foreign development)?
Politicians complain about pork barrel spending at home, but are happy to to send dozens of billions per year to foreign nations to blackmail their policies. That is money poorly spent.
In general spending US resources on foreign countries at odds with their neighbors does nothing more than promote bad policy. Perhaps if those nations adopted an arms-length foreign policy of their own they would not ‘face extinction’. Claims to the contrary about fundamentalist violence are absolutely ludicrous. There are not enough organized fundamentalists to topple any nation. There are far few real “Islamo-fascists” than there are Ron Paulites…
Fundamentalism is a police problem, not a military problem. You will never convince me to spend military dollars on a police problem - ESPECIALLY in someone else’s country. Thats ridiculous. Military expenditures are justified based on the detriments of war. Police problems involve almost none of those detriments and therefore cannot justify those types of expenditures.
In regard to the Bible (or any other religious text), since when does religion dictate our foreign policy? It does not, and should not. It should not direct our fiscal policy either. We may be a nation of religious individuals, in large part, but we are not a nation of religion. The text that our federal government gains its power from is the Constitution - not the Bible, the Torah, the Talmud, the Koran or anything else. Therefore the only text that should be quoted in regard to determining US foreign policy is the Constitution and derivates of it.
As a Christian I may be concerned about Israel’s welfare, depending on my interpration of the Bible. In my opinion on US foreign policy, however, I don’t give a damn about what the Bible says about Israel. The Bible’s job is not to determine the US foreign policy. US Policy is subservient to its goal of protecting the rights and properties of US citizens, period. Therefore I care about what our Constitution says about our foreign policy. Not a religious text.
So call me what you want. Call me a paleo-con, call me an anti-semite, call me anti-Israel. It makes no difference to me. In regard to my politics, I am pro-American and that is the only thing that makes a difference. If being pro-America means I have to be Anti-Israel, then I am proud to be both.
Nor do I consider myself an isolationist. And pretending that there is no difference between isolationism and non-interventionism is disingenous at best. There is a massive difference. Shifting to the religious texts for an example, isolationism and non-interventionism are as fundamentally different as ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ and ‘an eye for an eye’. One can summarize those two phrases with single-word tags and pretend, loosely, that their is no difference between the tags, but that is only true based on a limited set of circumstances, and never true as a general proposition.
February 12, 2008 at 7:01 pm
[...] read the full article by Doug Wead, mentioned by Ron Paul in his recent video: http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/the-mouse-that-roared-why-ron-paul-won-the-election/Here are a couple of excerpts: …Ron Paul made a classic political mistake. He told the [...]
February 12, 2008 at 9:05 pm
“bt7646 Says:
davidblack2………..you, and other Compromisers like you, are the reason my descendants will, more than likely, live in a “slave state’.
So how is backing a candidate with zero chances of winning going to change the inevitability you predict?
This is where the Paulists make me laugh. But suggesting such a self-fulfilling prophecy will ensure many years of more ill-conceived “revolution” rhetoric in cyberspace, won’t it?
“Talk about a wasted vote……….McCain has as much chance of beating either Hillary or Obama as you and I do. The Democrats will rip his stupid head off, over and over again.”
Polling results indicate otherwise, but I know how the Paulists have real difficulties accepting hard data. The Paulist who posts this blog considered Super Tuesday a victory for the True Patriot despite his dismal collection of 14 delegates compared to McCain’s collection of over 700.
Keep swilling the kool-aid, folks.
February 12, 2008 at 9:57 pm
I am astounded here at the shear animosity that a platform such as Paul’s could generate - whether you want to view it as a failure or not.
First off, just settle down a little man. I got myself really worked up reading through all this and just had to take a break for a second so I could make sure I clearly express what I got going on up here.
Answering the question of how the results of the campaign could be a victory, as you have repeatedly requested, here goes. The polls, votes and results were not a victory. Obviously. If it were a victory then the headlines would read “Paul Front-Runner.” They do not read that. The victory for many of us who hold a true pain in our hearts at what this nation is becoming comes in the voices we