Amway in the UK

Apparently, some of my facts were wrong when I referred to the Amway – UK thingy.  Here is a correspondent offering a correction.  Meanwhile, I will truck on with this series and get into some of the delicious negative that will delight some of you.

This from Ibofightback

Doug,

Enjoying your posts and looking forward to the future ones. A few important corrections re the UK – Amway was not shutdown by the government. The DTI (now BERR) did petition to close Amway and it went to court where Amway won the case. When the DTI indicated they were going to pursue the case Amway (not the DTI) suspended all sponsoring for 60 days. At the request of field leaders the sponsoring moratorium was extended until the case was finally over. Amway otherwise operated fully supporting existing distributors. Contrary to the predictions of folk who believe Amway is a pyramid, even with no sponsoring for 18 months numerous folk continued to qualify at Platinum and above.

Secondly, the case was not primarily about product pricing. BERR did claim the products were overpriced but Amway dropped pricing on only a dozen or so of over 450 products. The case was in fact remarkably similar to FTC vs Amway, with the problem being excessive income claims by distributors and Amway failing to monitor the field.

Third, while Amway did “suspend” the field BSM organizations, the case wasn’t about “tools” and the court explicitly noted this in the judgment.

BERR vs Amway court documents are available on Amway Wiki

It’s since been confirmed that much of the BERR case was actually driven by petitioning by well known anti-Amway and anti-mlm critics. I believe that one of those critics, David Brear, may be the original source of the incorrect stories regarding yourself and Amway France.

If anyone has more to add to this subject, or further corrections, you are welcome to weigh in.  Opinions are surely welcome, as well as anecdotal information, but facts are most appreciated.

If you want to follow this ongoing series from the beginning start at Doug Wead Amway adventure and follow the posts.  Continue from this one to How the Amway tools became a big business?

Даг Вид

25 Responses to Amway in the UK

  1. Doug,

    “the Amway – UK thingy”

    Are you referring to when you wrote:
    “But didn’t the British government recently shut down Amway in the U.K.? Yes, but if you will research that story you will see that it was related to the pricing of their products and the promotional system developed by their field to grow their networks.”
    https://dougwead.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/are-mlms-evil/

    “Research”. I guess that word means different things to different people. Court documents carry a wee bit more weight (for me at least) than other “sources”😉

  2. ibofightback says:

    lol! that is a bit ironic isn’t it Bridgett🙂

    Speaking of Amway UK, they’re about to open a new Amway Flagship store – looks very nice!. Not exactly shutdown, eh?

    Doug, I’m not sure if you’ve addressed this or not, but someone emailed me and asked if I knew whether you’re still a registered IBO or not. Can you clarify?

    thanks,
    /ibofb

  3. 30planner says:

    I am an ABO from the UK as well. If I am correct the reason of the moratorium was to make sure that business support material (BSM) in use in the UK are to be corresponding with the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan.
    There were – prior to the legal case – nearly a dozen different BSM cmpanies that offered reasonable help to ABOs to grow their businesses with informational and motivational materials. But some were far off the truth. Therefore during the moratorium letters were sent to BSM companies to rewise there material or simply shut down there operation otherwise they will be sued and ABOs using their material will no longer be able to renew their businesses with Amway. Some abided the rules, some didn’t.
    It is obviously a misunderstanding of the support system as people say that “they lost money; were ripped off; they had to” as purchasing of BSM material is not at all obligatory. It is always good to use tools, as it is much easier to hit a nail with a hammer than with bare hands. Same with the Amway business.
    Doug says it on many of his recrdings: that you could ask your wife to tie your hands behind your back, and go diamond, so you can tell it one day on a CD: “I went diamond with your hands tied behind your back.” I think this line sounds familiar to many people who listen to Doug Weads recording so often as I do! Doug is inspirational and motivational and I believe he is a man of God! Thank you very much Dough for your analogies and for your hope-delivering speeches!

    Go on Doug and hope to see and hear you on stage here in Budapest, Hungary soon!

  4. tex2 says:

    Doug,

    You didn’t get your facts wrong. Facts aren’t wrong. Facts are facts, and are always correct. Interpretation of the facts are what is wrong. You were simply wrong when you said the UK Amway business was shut down.

    However, you will find ibofb is often “technically” correct, but substantially incorrect. You will also find him and Bridgett, as well as others ibofb allows to post on his biased website, behaving in this manner quite often.

    Enjoying your posts and looking forward to the future ones. —- Good technique, compliment someone before you start unloading your BS, a spoonful of sugar makes the BS medicine go down.

    A few important corrections re the UK – Amway was not shutdown by the government. —- As described above, this is technically true. However, for over a year, no sponsoring was allowed, only self consumption and selling to non-IBOs. In a country where the prices were high (prior to the price reductions) and the culture is virtually zero selling, this caused a large percentage of IBOs to quit. Also, zero tools were allowed to be sold, including prohibiting any meetings where any money was collected, including covering the room rental cost, if any. As a result:

    1. A couple of UK diamonds were booted when a back-door entry to their tool site was left open (and other U.S. LCKs apparently were so severely impacted they left a few months later,
    2. BWW left the UK with their tail between their legs (and reportedly kept money already paid for future meetings), and
    3. The N21 LCK “leader”, Jim Dornan, tried to make it appear to be an Amway problem in a letter, was severely chastised by Amway and reissued his letter.

    All of the above is well documented, ibofb would be happy to provide the evidence if you desire.

    The DTI (now BERR) did petition to close Amway and it went to court where Amway won the case. —- Again, this is “technically” true, as BERR did want to boot Amway from the UK. However, the judge kept in place ALL of the concessions Amway made in the beginning of the process, which as you can see above, were substantial. He also required UK IBOs to have a certain volume of customers prior to sponsoring anyone else, in order to Amway to resume sponsoring in the UK. However, as noted above, ALL other concessions were made permanent, and the judge clearly stated he still came within a whisker of shutting them down anyway. So, if you consider all the above “winning”, go for it.

    When the DTI indicated they were going to pursue the case Amway (not the DTI) suspended all sponsoring for 60 days. —- Nice choice of words. Amway obviously was trying to appease the DTI, and the suspension of sponsoring ended up lasting for over a year, with the above retail-first requirements in place.

    At the request of field leaders the sponsoring moratorium was extended until the case was finally over. —- I’m sure! ibofb needs to prove this dream, I don’t recall anything of the sort. This is similar to Amway taking the initiative after the DTI initially getting involved. An analogy to this would be all the Barry O. cabinet nominations coming clean about their taxes AFTER getting nominated.

    Amway otherwise operated fully supporting existing distributors. —- With the severe restrictions in place, and with the much smaller number who hung in for the year+ period of time.

    Contrary to the predictions of folk who believe Amway is a pyramid, even with no sponsoring for 18 months numerous folk continued to qualify at Platinum and above. —- ibofb’s definition of “numerous” is extremely misleading, as proven by the statistics Amway is required to publish on an annual basis, another new requirement of the ruling.

    Secondly, the case was not primarily about product pricing. —- The case was about a number of issues, and product pricing wouldn’t have been reduce by 70% for some of the products if pricing were not a major factor. Arguing over “primarily” when there are several critical factors is useless and misleading.

    BERR did claim the products were overpriced but Amway dropped pricing on only a dozen or so of over 450 products. —- As far as has been reported. I have never seen a “before and after” pricing list for all UK Amway products.

    The case was in fact remarkably similar to FTC vs Amway, with the problem being excessive income claims by distributors and Amway failing to monitor the field. —- There is virtually zero similarity, as the FTC action didn’t result in zero tool profits, massive price reductions, or retail sales prior to sponsoring (although there was a time in the 1960’s, prior to the FTC case, where I believe retail sales were required prior to sponsoring).

    Third, while Amway did “suspend” the field BSM organizations, the case wasn’t about “tools” and the court explicitly noted this in the judgment. —- The
    “suspension” is permanently in place, from the view of zero tool profit. The court explicitly wouldn’t have kept this in place if the case wasn’t about the tool scam.

    It’s since been confirmed that much of the BERR case was actually driven by petitioning by well known anti-Amway and anti-mlm critics. —- Point? Did you expect the case to be driven by petitioning by well know pro-Amway and pro-MLM supporters? The UK judge still had to allow Amway to defend themselves, decide the facts, and make a judgment.

    I believe that one of those critics, David Brear, may be the original source of the incorrect stories regarding yourself and Amway France. —- I already addressed this issue, Doug needs to pursue the original story, not the person who repeated the story, and he still hasn’t responded to this issue.

    If anyone has more to add to this subject, or further corrections, you are welcome to weigh in. —- No problem.

    Opinions are surely welcome, as well as anecdotal information, but facts are most appreciated. —- I have supplied purely factual information.

    Other than that, ibofb is perfectly correct! LOL

  5. tex2 says:

    Bridgett,

    I agree the court documents should carry weight. The court documents support EXACTLY what Doug said, there were Amway and tool product pricing issues, which led to the LCK’s making most of their profit from the tools, and most IBO’s making a net loss.

  6. tex2 says:

    I am an ABO from the UK as well. —- How long have you been an IBO/ABO?

    If I am correct the reason of the moratorium was to make sure that business support material (BSM) in use in the UK are to be corresponding with the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan. —- If you mean making the profit from Amway products rather than from the tool scam, you are correct.

    There were – prior to the legal case – nearly a dozen different BSM cmpanies that offered reasonable help to ABOs to grow their businesses with informational and motivational materials. —– Please define “reasonable” within the context of the tool scam.

    But some were far off the truth. —- Please define “truth” within the context of the tool scam.

    Therefore during the moratorium letters were sent to BSM companies to rewise there material or simply shut down there operation otherwise they will be sued and ABOs using their material will no longer be able to renew their businesses with Amway. Some abided the rules, some didn’t. —- This was not a simple tool content revision, it was a TOTAL change to the business model.

    It is obviously a misunderstanding of the support system as people say that “they lost money; were ripped off; they had to” as purchasing of BSM material is not at all obligatory. —- Tools are optional, but so is success. I’ve heard it many times, from many LOS groups. This is another one of those pesky “technical” terms. By rule, tools are not required. If you want help, you better buy the tools.

    It is always good to use tools, as it is much easier to hit a nail with a hammer than with bare hands. Same with the Amway business. —- I couldn’t agree more. Should the hammers sell for $400 (tools), so the seller can clean up, or should the hammer sell for $20, so you can build the house (Amway) and make a proift?

    Doug says it on many of his recrdings: that you could ask your wife to tie your hands behind your back, and go diamond, so you can tell it one day on a CD: “I went diamond with your hands tied behind your back.” —- Point?

    I think this line sounds familiar to many people who listen to Doug Weads recording so often as I do! —- Yes, it sounds misleading and insulting.

    Doug is inspirational and motivational and I believe he is a man of God! Thank you very much Dough for your analogies and for your hope-delivering speeches! —- Doug better be careful, as he hasn’t demonstrated any “godlike” behavior, because he STILL hasn’t answered some very simple questions.

    Go on Doug and hope to see and hear you on stage here in Budapest, Hungary soon! —- So which is it Doug, the truth or another overseas speaking fee?

  7. 30planner says:

    Sorry but I would rather not go into that. If you don’t mind. I feel it is a crosslining issue, therefore it can be harmful for both you and I.

  8. tex2 says:

    You are well trained. You may have your brain back if/when you quit Amway.

  9. ibofightback says:

    Anyone who is still bothering to read the delusion ramblings of Tex is free to read the original court documents on the AmwayWiki link provided.

    Doug – as I’m sure you’ve noticed, there’s a very good reason why Tex has been banned from virtually every site he participates in.

  10. tex2 says:

    Anyone who is still bothering to read the delusion ramblings of ibofb is free to read the original court documents on the AmwayWiki link provided:

    http://www.amwaywiki.com/images/6/60/BERR_vs_Amway_UK_-_Judgement.pdf

    Be sure to look at page 50, paragraph 57c.

    Doug – as I’m sure you’ve noticed, there’s a very good reason why ibofb was mostly ignored by me while we were in Prague.

  11. ibofightback says:

    Yup, please do look there – that’s one of the places where it says the problem was with excessive income claims by the field, as I stated. Indeed to make it easy for folk, here it is below. Note that this was an undertaking offered by Amway, which the judge accepted, not something the judge imposed.

    (c) All BSM deployed by certified retail consultants and business consultants will be rigorously controlled by Amway, and it will be impermissible for any profit to be derived from its production or dissemination. Thus the scope and incentive for third parties to misrepresent the business opportunity will be significantly reduced (and, incidentally, ABOs will not be pressured into buying BSM in excess of their reasonable needs).

    See also page 56 of the same document to see how important these undertakings were to the dismissal of the case –

    In the instant case I could simply dismiss the petition: but undertakings are offered and I see no need to spurn them even if the Secretary of State shows no enthusiasm for their acceptance.

    and from the Appeal Judgement, page 2 –

    The fault which the judge found against the company was essentially that it had failed to supervise and control the representations and promotional material used by its own IBOs in their own recruitment.

    and just to be even clearer, so that anyone (with at least one obvious exception) can understand the “importance” of the undertakings, from page 3-

    In any event, the judge did not refuse the petition because he was willing to accept the company’s undertakings, but rather he accepted the undertakings because he was willing to refuse the petition.

    And that’s my final response to Tex on this forum. Folks, I recommend you all ignore him. Alas that won’t stop him from posting his continued rantings here – though I do encourage Mr Wead to consider that option before all possible discussion is destroyed.

  12. tex2 says:

    Yup, please do look there – that’s one of the places where it says the problem was with excessive income claims by the field, as I stated. —- It wasn’t the excessive income claims by the field, merely the SOURCE of the claims: Amway or tool scam? After all, the LCKs back up the income claims with their big mansions, fancy cars, boats, airplanes, jewelry, etc., etc., etc. So the FACT of income claims can be physically demonstrated, but the judge shut down the tool scam in paragraph 57c, such that future tool scam produced income claims were impossible.

    Indeed to make it easy for folk, here it is below. Note that this was an undertaking offered by Amway, which the judge accepted, not something the judge imposed. —- This “undertaking offered by Amway” was probably a result of discussions with DTI prior to the undertakings being announced. I guess, by your attitude, you have no issue with the head of the IRS being a tax cheat, do you?

    (c) All BSM deployed by certified retail consultants and business consultants will be rigorously controlled by Amway, and it will be impermissible for any profit to be derived from its production or dissemination. Thus the scope and incentive for third parties to misrepresent the business opportunity will be significantly reduced (and, incidentally, ABOs will not be pressured into buying BSM in excess of their reasonable needs). —- Yes, the end of the UK tool scam. What’s YOUR point?

    See also page 56 of the same document to see how important these undertakings were to the dismissal of the case —- Yes, let’s do….

    In the instant case I could simply dismiss the petition: but undertakings are offered and I see no need to spurn them even if the Secretary of State shows no enthusiasm for their acceptance. —- The reason the Secretary of State showed no enthusiasm for their acceptance was 2-fold: getting caught after significant damage was done and making necessary changes is normally NOT enough to remain in business, and the Secretary of State didn’t trust Amway to maintain the necessary changes. So, I don’t know what your point is, probably because you don’t HAVE one.

    and from the Appeal Judgement, page 2 –

    The fault which the judge found against the company was essentially that it had failed to supervise and control the representations and promotional material used by its own IBOs in their own recruitment. —- Part of the “failed to supervise and control the representations” included the amount of money charged and the resulting MA$$IVE profit. Otherwise, paragraph 57c would be meaningless.

    and just to be even clearer, so that anyone (with at least one obvious exception) can understand the “importance” of the undertakings, from page 3- —- So far, the “one obvious exception” to simple logic has been demonstrated by you.

    In any event, the judge did not refuse the petition because he was willing to accept the company’s undertakings, but rather he accepted the undertakings because he was willing to refuse the petition. —- What is the point of this legalese, circular logic? The point is the original judge almost shut down Amway UK even with the changes that Amway “volunteered” to put in place.

    And that’s my final response to Tex on this forum. —- Thank God. Get lost, liar.

    Folks, I recommend you all ignore ibofb. Alas that won’t stop him from posting his continued rantings on his own site – though I do encourage Mr Wead to consider responding to ibofb’s BS before all possible discussion is destroyed.

  13. 1formeribo says:

    Any blog tex is allowed to post on is ruined.

  14. tex2 says:

    Any blog 1formeribo is allowed to post on is ruined.

  15. Regarding profitability of IBOs, and the claim that IBOs don’t start making money until the Platinum level (7,500 PV in the States):

    This is NOT my personal experience nor the experience of dozens of IBOships in my immediate organization.

    For those looking to both retail AND sponsor (which, not everyone is looking to sponsor in the Amway Business. But if they are, it does mean more expenses AND much more profit), with a proper work habit and proper business parameters, IBOs in our organization start to make a profit with a 300 PV business (1/25 of a Platinumship)–the equivalent of about 20 $75-free-shipping retail customers.

    Not everyone builds an Amway Business the same way, hence why some are profitable and some aren’t. Some are successful and some aren’t.

    So if would behoove the reader to check the credibility of the source from whom they are getting their information.

  16. 30planner says:

    Dear tex2,

    Thanks for your compliment.

  17. tex2 says:

    Dear 30planner,

    Thanks for your dodging.

  18. tex2 says:

    Let the record show ibofb ran away with his tail between his legs, while I not only responded to his BS point by point, with court documented references, but he ignored most of the points I made and resorted to name calling.

  19. tex2 says:

    Bitchett,

    Regarding profitability of IBOs, and the claim that IBOs don’t start making money until the Platinum level (7,500 PV in the States): —- The above “claim” has been made by several people, also claiming to be former Platinum/Ruby IBOs on various blogs, so it should not be dismissed out of hand. To see how “prim and proper” Bitchett has told outright lies about others, go here: “http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/note-to-bitchett.html”

    This is NOT my personal experience nor the experience of dozens of IBOships in my immediate organization. —- YOUR personal experience is highly unusual, as I have tapes and CD’s which, when followed, would not allow you to make this claim. When I desire the advice of a clueless, one legged Silver, I’ll ask. Promise.

    In fact, you have stated you followed your WWDB direction for years, prior to scaling back, because you noticed they were ripping you off. For those who would like to know how one of these “leaders” is doing, go here: “http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/duncan-bankruptcy-further-exposes-tool.html”

    What’s YOUR impression of Mr. Duncan, Bitchett? I know, I know, you’re not going to answer, because I’m calling you names. Too bad for YOU that you have EARNED the name.

    In fact, the more you listen to your upline, the less net profit you make. You should read ANYTHING from Bitchett with a full measure of doubt.

    For those looking to both retail AND sponsor (which, not everyone is looking to sponsor in the Amway Business. —- Let’s not discuss that 99+% are not looking to sell only, and most were told no selling is required. But that would smack like too much TRUTH, wouldn’t it Bitchett?

    But if they are, it does mean more expenses AND much more profit), with a proper work habit and proper business parameters, IBOs in our organization start to make a profit with a 300 PV business (1/25 of a Platinumship)–the equivalent of about 20 $75-free-shipping retail customers. —- I’d like to see your overhead costs for this “calculation”, because I don’t believe it. If what you said was more than a rare aberration, Amway would have more than 3-4% retail volume.

    Not everyone builds an Amway Business the same way, hence why some are profitable and some aren’t. Some are successful and some aren’t. —- Tapespeak, you learned well, Bitchett. The question isn’t the obvious point of whether every IBO is identical, the question is whether the business model uses a tool scam, which results in MUCH more being made on tools, while most IBO’s have a net loss.

    So if would behoove the reader to check the credibility of the source from whom they are getting their information. —- Yes, check ALL the facts: “http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html”

  20. RW1 says:

    30planner –
    I have found it is a waste of time and energy reading let alone replying to Tex – I dont know where ibogb finds the ‘where with all’ to keep responding.
    By the way Tex go back and correct this “tex2 Says:
    April 18, 2009 at 5:59 pm | Reply
    Bitchett,” your insults degrade genuine people.

    http://networkmarketingroi.blogspot.com/
    http://amwayukirelandfacts.wordpress.com/

  21. trakka says:

    I sometimes wonder what motivates people like tex but then I just say “There but for the Grace of God….”

    Tex, the tools are a voluntary thing. If you for example had to run around to each and every person you met, venting your spleen on the supposed tools scam you would get very tired very quickly, even with the limited audience of people prepared to agree with you(now THAT would be a scary room! LOL!). This forum gives you a platform to air your views. Likewise with the tools, one person is able to send exactly the same message to dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of people who volunteer to receive it. Does it cost money? Yes, so? You get sold electricty, gas, water, food, petrol and all your day to day needs with no protest(I assume! LOL) and I don’t see you storming the battlements over that outrageousness(new word!). You option after all, is to deny yourself electrical comforts and entertainment, gas and from-the-tap-water; to grow your own food and either ride a bike or walk everywhere. My guess is you don’t do any of that…
    I don’t always get turned on by what I hear but for $8.00 I’m going to get all undone? Give me a break…
    So why stress out over something which no longer has any hold on you? Do something constructive for yourself and family. Most of the people you are trying to “save” are willing volunteers and accordingly, uninterested in what you have to say. The other dunderklumpens should give you cause to say “There but for the Grace of God…”.

  22. Website says:

    Website…

    Amway in the UK « Doug Wead The Blog…

  23. your first year in network marketing…

    […]Amway in the UK « Doug Wead The Blog[…]…

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