Copeland’s Crime? He Trusts His Family

 

According to an article recently filed by the Associated Press, the latest attacks on the Kenneth Copeland Ministries have now shifted to charges of nepotism.  This comes as a bit of a shock to those of us in the Judeo Christian tradition, as it puts Reverend Copeland in the ranks of such religious scoundrels as Moses (who passed the baton to his father-in-law), Nehemiah (who appointed his brother to run Jerusalem in his absence), and Jesus (whose brother James emerged as the leader of the Church after Jesus’ ascension).

 

It would be comical, if the stakes weren’t so high. The fact is that the AP story is just another chapter in a familiar and ongoing tale of religious persecution.  It is prompted by Ole Anthony, the local religious “watchdog” who has doctrinal disagreements with Pentecostals and Charismatics and keeps casting around for a willing media vehicle and a new angle that will get him and his organization on the evening news.  Anthony has long ago abandoned the idea of confronting these ministries on doctrinal grounds.  That clearly doesn’t work in a country that treasures religious freedom.  So he leaps from accusation to accusation, taking up a new charge when the old one loses traction.  This is merely Anthony’s latest bid for media attention. 

 

The Early Attacks

 

Several years ago, Anthony tried to convince journalists that the crime of these Pentecostal-Charismatic evangelists was their belief in divine healing.  This resulted in a series of television attack pieces on evangelist Benny Hinn, with cameras following Hinn around and documenting accounts of people who were not healed.  Pentecostals understand that most seekers are not healed.  That’s why we call such events miracles.  The idea that a network television producer had figured it all out for believers, doing the work that two thousand years and tens of thousands of thinkers and monks and theologians who devoted their lives to the subject could not do, might have made for an interesting 20-minute segment on a news show.  But it was stunning in its intellectual arrogance. 

 

It also put Anthony and the media at odds with most of America.  People of many faiths –including Christian Scientists, Mormons, and New Agers – believe in divine healing, if not in Hinn.  Sixty-seven percent of the country prays daily.  Are they praying for God to help them in their marriages and careers, but not with cancer and diabetes?  The secular media, clueless about the role religion really plays in American life, went too far.  They were seen by many as attacking the very idea of prayer and of belief in God – a belief shared by 90% of their viewing audience.  Not surprisingly, after a few relentless years, Anthony’s efforts fizzled.

 

Attacks on Ministry Finances

 

The attack on the spending and lifestyles of the evangelists has met with greater success, although it too has had missteps.  When a false attack on Fred Price presented information out of context and led to a damaging lawsuit against a network, the “watchdogs” were forced to be more careful.  (You can see the whole embarrassing episode on You Tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu82W0o4200)

 

Now, Charles Grassley, one of the most outstanding and fearless figures of the United States Senate, has been drawn into the attack on Pentecostal and Charismatic ministries.  Given his high office, Grassley’s attack has been well covered by the media.  At a press conference, he invited public ridicule of the ministries because one of the ministries paid too much for some furniture.  He made jokes.  He even paid lip service to religious freedom. 

 

A few days later, someone questioned why Grassley had omitted other evangelists of other faith traditions who had even larger compensation packages.  Grassley, who claimed to have been mulling this over for two years, said he was completely unaware that the six ministries he happened to target were of the same faith.  But after that fact was made clear, and highlighted by letters signed by religious leaders expressing concern that he “sets a terrible precedent,” Grassley did not change his list of targets.  The campaign, even now, is aimed exclusively at Pentecostal-Charismatic churches.

 

The Associated Press Attack

 

The recent AP article makes no specific charges of illegality against Kenneth Copeland, but the article hints that we should assume the worst, based on the supposedly shocking fact that Copeland has placed family members in important positions in his ministry. 

 

Of course Copeland has relatives who have joined his cause.  This is hardly unique to the Charismatic-Pentecostal tradition (although Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, and others on Senator Grassley’s list have certainly entrusted family members with important positions).  In fact, it is true of most religious organizations.  Jerry Falwell was succeeded by his son.   Similar successions are underway in the organizations of Paul Crouch, Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller, and Billy Graham.  Indeed, Graham already has a son and a grandson running his ministry, not to mention daughters and granddaughters.  Will the AP publish a breathless exposé on “nepotism” in Dr. Graham’s ministry?  Don’t hold your breath.

 

Indeed, we’ve seen children following in their parents’ footsteps in the media.  Mike and Chris Wallace come to mind, as well as Jack and Joe Buck.  And there have been more than a few seats in the United States Congress that have been regarded more or less as family property.  These situations don’t set off any alarm bells, as long as the people in question do their jobs and do them well.  Prominent editor Adam Bellow, author of In Praise of Nepotism, has written that “relatives often work harder for less money and are more loyal because they have a personal stake in the organization’s success.”  Kenneth Copeland obviously believes this, which is why he has given trusted family members positions in the ministry he has spent a lifetime building.

 

The nepotism angle is, no doubt, inspired by Anthony.  If the AP reporter had not been spoon-fed the story, he surely would have seen that Copeland’s supposed crime of nepotism is not unique to his ministry or to his faith.  Copeland, like all successful leaders, has simply relied upon people he knows and trusts.  Is that really a crime worthy of investigation?

 

The Bigger Picture

 

The larger issue is why journalists and politicians are loaning out their offices to people of one faith who are trying to attack another.  The AP story contains no mention of the letter signed by leading Catholic and Protestants warning Grassley of the dangers of the exclusive targeting of one doctrinal group.  Indeed, Matthew Staver, Dean of the Liberty University School of Law and a prominent Baptist leader, signed the letter, warning that Grassley’s probe “sets a terrible precedent that . . . should be a concern to all houses of worships across the board – Christian and non-Christian.”  

 

Staver is right.  All Pentecostal-Charismatic congregations want is to be left alone to believe, pray, and worship as they are guided.  Singling them out isn’t merely unfair; it also threatens the bedrock principle of separation of church and state.  And that’s a lot scarier than nepotism.

 

See Kenneth Copeland’s Jet:  https://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/kenneth-copelands-jet/

Senator Grassley’s own non profit:  https://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/people-in-grassley-houses-shouldnt-throw-stones/

53 Responses to Copeland’s Crime? He Trusts His Family

  1. admills says:

    If nepotism is so terrible why does America have families like the Bush’s and Kennedy’s. It is a long held American tradition to help ones family, and to partner up with family. Who can you trust more than family.

    This silly AP story is so out of left field it does not even resemble journalism.

    I hope the people that voted Grassley in pay close attention (Especially the christian/muslim/jewish/hindu/bhuddist ones!) to what he is doing. Attacking the separation of church and state is something that is not to be forgiven in my book!

    Copeland’s ministry is going to outlast these disgusting political attacks because thousand of free american tax payers love and adore him.

    Christians everywhere need to be praying for Copeland,

    Good article Doug!

  2. chumpzilla says:

    It is so funny that members of the media might be concerned with someone placing trusted family in important positions.

    Anybody who ever worked at NBC knows that , inside the company, it stands for “Nepotism Before Competence.”

    What worries me is what type of country we are boceming. Will the next charges be that Copeland is a sodomite (a common method used in third world countries to bring down political rivals).

    Oh, by the way, anybody look into whether Ole Anthony has family members on his staff? Or the fact that Grassley’s son runs the business that he owns?

    It has become so transparent that this is a witch hunt against these particular churches (whose faith I do not personally subscribe to).

    Be very afraid, America. When they come after your beliefs, remember that you stood and you watched while they set a precedent.

  3. quizaxehatrack says:

    When they came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I wasn’t a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

  4. pinhero says:

    Yeah, I was kind of astonished at all the hoopla about nepotism… It is true that people want to be in business with family members they can actually trust. Remember seeing all the pick up trucks with signs on the doors that say, “Joseph and Sons”? Or some such thing? It has got to be even more important in ministry to have people you can trust around you. And there is a sense of pride that your family believes that what you are doing is important enough that they want to follow in your footsteps.

  5. gabbert1 says:

    Has anyone in the media actually LOOKED at stuff that Ole Anthony has on his sites? When I did, I was appalled. The man must go around in a perpetual state of anger and hatred. What is Christian about that? How could anybody give such a person any credibility at all?

  6. sustain5 says:

    How in the world could Grassley have been UNAWARE that all the ministries were of the same faith? I saw one of his latest reports and he had details out the wazoo. It is inconceivable that he also did not know what faiths he had targeted.

  7. berain2 says:

    I have come to admire Senator Grassley for his tenacity in investigating what he sees as wrongdoing, such as in doctors who do not report income from drug companies. But this, Dear Senator, just is not right. The whole thing rings false.

  8. Black David says:

    I have never encountered a more paranoid bunch of people in life, next to UFO conspiracists.

    Persecution? You people don’t even know what it truly means. Everyday, rockets are fired at Israelis just because they are Jews.

    Where’s your outrage about that? Your cozy little lives aren’t being threatened one bit.

    Please, would one of you evangelicals tell me how your ability to personally pray and worship as you please has been abridged by these investigations?

    And quizaxe, since you are too cowardly to take my responses on your blog, let me tell youthat equating legal Congressional investigations into tax exempt organizations with what the nazi party did in germany in the 1930s is an insult to Jews. Did that ever occur to you?

  9. justiceforall5 says:

    Dear Mr. Black David: Did it occur to you that the very point these people are attempting to make is that they don’t want it to happen to anybody again, Jews included.

  10. Black David says:

    A legal investigation over possible tax exemption violations is not a pretext for mass murder.

    If you think so, you need to be committed to a mental asylum pronto.

  11. quizaxehatrack says:

    David,
    I lost family members in Nazi labor camps. You have nothing to teach me about that.
    If you are looking for someone offensive, start with your mirror.

  12. Black David says:

    “If you are looking for someone offensive, start with your mirror.”

    Oh please, who’s the person with the grinning skull for an avatar? A little pot/kettle there, don’t you think?

    If seeing the world for what it is, not for what I hope it could be like, is now considered offensive, I am happy to be guilty as charged.

    You people seeing a slippery slope with this Grassley investigation are insane, to say the least. Again, prove how your right to personally worship and pray has been abridged.

    I really doubt you would stick your neck out like this for any elected leader, that’s for sure.

  13. bloodbot says:

    I am not surprised at the attack on nepotism. I believe Grassley’s plan is to keep himself in the news as much as possible. It is free face-time for him for his next election. Grassley has “trained” the media to look for these pathetic stabs for their “news”. It should be called “olds”, as it is neither fresh news, nor updating journalism.

    Figure-heads like Grassley have become icons in their own minds. They believe that they are above many principles that the American public must live with. They believe that they are seated at the top, to create laws that we must live by, but they leave out the most important law there is. Law of Morality.

    Our founding fathers made it clear that our government, BY the people, FOR the people stands solely on the moral character and selfless work of it’s servants, the elected officials. When our elected officials resort to lying, distorting the truth, and even making up their OWN truth, that very foundation begins to become shakey. The elected official can become more like a gargoyle than an icon: Freedom Guardian.

    So I am not surprised at Grassley’s attack on any level. His past has shown he will do anything to achieve his personal agenda, re-election and to carry out the mission to destroy anything that is not his. Our choice to reply to him, through emails, letters, calls to his office must be constant, for fear is his language, and when he knows the true Moral constituants of America are not going to allow this, he too will be under scrutiny, and will change his tune, like a chameleon.

  14. poreagus says:

    First David, there is nothing wrong with being suspicious of the federal government. Thomas Jefferson Said. “A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned – this is the sum of good government”. You may object to the way Copeland got these funds personally, but that does not give the government the right to start a witch hunt. Second, you need to understand how an oppressive government starts. Nazism, Communism, and Socialism sneak in like a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Give an inch and they take a mile, every time. Its not evil or wrong for someone to be suspicious of them for it. “Seeing the world for it is” is far different than seeing the world from a historical perspective. Those of us who see it through the scope of history are wise to second guess the actions of government.

  15. phredone says:

    All of us who think the Grassley investigation is wrong for whatever reason should be happy with this new angle of attack. Why? Because this new angle of attack is proof that the original accusations have not worked and now they are saying that if you are not upset over how Copeland is spending his money you should be upset over how his family is spending their money. Next week they will be looking into how employees are spending their money. Image if an employee has enough money to drive a Lexus or Heaven forbid a BMW. This new report is classic example proving this investigation is nothing more than a smear campaign. Grassley or his friends in the media will continue to throw out different accusations until one of them gains some traction or the whole things dries up and goes away.
    Some how I don not think these are not the kind of activities the founders had in mind for our Senators when setting up the Congress.

  16. boomer900 says:

    Good article Doug. I wholly agree. It is sad to see such a respected Senator allow his office to become the puppet of such a hate-filled, fear-mongering dogmatist as Ole Anthony. I hope he and his staff will wise up and cut the strings.

  17. donnaloo says:

    My immediate thought is what about Corporate America . Its not attacked on Nepotism …..They pass ON ones beliefs and legacys. Who better than a family member …who grew up in that legacy, who were born into the philosophy . NO TRAINING …IT WAS LIVED . Its THE AMERICAN WAY.

    Amway comes to mind ….they went with the co founders children ( all 8 of them) … I believe it was one of the smoother transitions in Corp America

    Marriott …is another …still in family control ….if it resists the foreign buyout (Blackstone) that Hilton succumbed to. So far it has and the product reflects pride of ownership . Hilton went way down hill .

    Mary Kay …by contrast ….who went public …had to buy her own company back to save it …..because her philosophy was not followed .I dont think they ever recovered fully .

    The John Creen Family is quite a story in “Motor Homes” ….They founded and owned “Fleetwood” …and ran it very successfully for many many years …generations of employees ( many family members) and generations of a quality product .The son left to take over Alfa ( maker of fifth wheels ) . He led that company to begin motor homes . And created Alfa See Ya an affordable quality motor home . The father couldnt convince the board ( at Fleetwod ) that the direction they were headed was a mistake …into modular homes ( in a declining real estate market ) He left Fleetwood and joined his son at Alfa …Together they made a product for the younger market ( under John Jr’s guidance ) and the more senior market got another product (under John Sr ‘s guidance ) . The Fleetwood product had previously always been known for quality & service …without the Creen touch …that went downhill quickly. I know I own one …post Creen . Its a piece of “cheap junk” . “Was that Nepotism or Just Good Solid American Business Sense ”

    What about the HUGE AMERICAN DYNASTYS…..the Rockefellers , the Carnegies , the Hiltons , the “old” Bank of America ( under Giannini )….Hershey …Disney ( when a Disney owned & ran it ) …..and just look how they depart from their success when “families are no longer in charge ”

    FAMILY OWNED TO ME …..IS A SYMBOL OF AMERICAN PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP , STANDING BY ONES PRODUCT …QUALITY .

    My PERSONAL opinion …..why not family ?????

    I, too , am concerned and agree …if they can attack one religious DENOMINATION ….none of us are safe . I was raised Catholic …always criticized. Now I belong to the Crystal Cathedral ( we get hit a lot ) ….and we are on our “third generation Robert Schuller” and Bobby is a fantastic young minister …his dad is Senior Pastor …his mom very active in ministry . How could he not be . All the Schuller kids & Wife are very involved in the ministry . Dr Norman Vincent Peale ( Dr Schuller’s mentor ) ….Ruth a very big part of his ministry .

    Senator Grassley is on “shakey ground” . Seems like he is being a puppet in a fight where government ought to mind its own business . WOW another area they ought to not stick their nose in . Maybe that effort could be directed toward solving our energy crisis ….and not taking the month of August off .

    CONGRESS SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR OWN HOUSES …AND LEAVE THE HOUSES OF WORSHIP TO GOD ….A 9% APPROVAL RATING FOR GOODNESS SAKE IN ONLY TWO HOUSES …LET GOD TAKE CARE OF HIS HOUSES…HIS APPROVAL RATING IS 67% – 87% DEPENDING ON THE POLL . AND HE HAS MANY MANY MORE HOUSES . AND HIS TERM DOESNT RUN OUT …..

    Go get ’em Doug …..you always stay so calm …AND SO FACTUAL …they havent got a chance .

    D

  18. sdhines says:

    Let’s be real honest here. I cannot tell what is in a man’s heart, but it is a stretch to take Copeland, Crouch, or Dollar (as well as many others) very seriously as men of God. I make no claims on whether they are saved or not. If you watch these guys, or read their material 90% of it is getting around to get the gullible to plant a faith seed, which always turns out to be money and money sent to their ministries. Their whole thing is so transparent and so counter to anything even resembling true Christianity – these guys are so centered on the things of this world, the finer things, that they deserve to be made an example of in front of the whole worldly system that they covet in the cloak of Christianity. They always talk about the harvest that comes from what they sow, so regardless of what has caused the investigations, it is time for the farmer to be first a partaker of the harvest that they have planted with their deceitful, money hungry, dishonest ministries. For those in search of some real biblical preaching and teaching turn to teachers like John Macarthur, John Piper, Ravi Zacharias and those who preach the Word in Spirit and in Truth, not trying to con you into turning God into a cosmic slot machine that will pay you off so you can enjoy the “American Dream” of greed and comfort. God bless you all with wisdom according to His will.

  19. poreagus says:

    Thomas Jefferson said “I have no ambition to govern men; it is a painful and thankless office”. Why cant we have leaders like this today. Grassley is to caught up in his own “Power” When will our politicians get back to the humble roots of our founding.

  20. donnaloo says:

    Dear Poreagus…..I know your question was rhetorical but may I answer anyway .

    “When will our politicians get back to the humble roots of our founding” .

    My guess is when we ALL actively speak out at the polls …and elect humble men & women who have track records of respecting our founding fathers and our Judeo Christian origins . When we become the “vocal majority ” rather than the silent minority . When we stop kicking GOD out of our public lives . When we as Americans speak with one voice against our common enemy . Terrorism & The New York Times . Had to get that in .

    BUT MOST OF ALL ….when Christians quit fighting and bickering with one another about who’s path to “salvation is better”. Isnt it better to have all those folks in church praying , reading the bible …than attack the person who led them to become a believer .

    And to the person who blogged the attack on TV ministers . My minister is on TV …and my church ( that he pastors) welcomes everyone …they never asked ME where I came from …just where I wanted to go . Our services are packed every Sunday …and we have never heard a disparaging remarK about another denomination …EVER !!!!

    I do find it rather curious …that the people who do all the name calling in politics have no real substance or issues to comment on ….and the “Christians” who do all the name calling towards fellow Christians also have nothing of substance to say .
    Just a bunch of name calling . Please study JOHN 3:16

    It may sound trite but its true “United We Stand …Divided We Fall”.

  21. joeydacat says:

    Hey sdhines,

    I am Roman Catholic by “religion”. I would encourage you to watch Kenneth Copeland for a decent amount of time before you make such harsh judgements on the man. The only problem is that if you gave him a real chance, you might have to admit that you fasly prejudged him. The great commandment given to us by Christ is to … Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. Kenneth fills both of these better than most good “Christians” I have met.

    Kenneth never asks people to send money, but it would be hypocritical of him to not provide an opportunity for them to give as they are led by God, since he believes that a person’s gift is their seed sown in faith. He only teaches what he has done, and he has given tremendously and continues to give to other ministries, partners, and casual viewers.

  22. skier63 says:

    sdhines,
    From your post it is seems you are not very familiar with all these ministries. I will not speak for those that I am not a partner with but I can tell you this, that as far as KCM is concerned you will not find a more involved, relevant, hardworking, praying, Bible-based, Word believing & preaching, giving, outreaching based ministry.
    Like joeydacat already stated you will never be begged or manipulated for $’s to meet the ministries needs. In fact, you will be told to put it back in your pocket if it’s not the Lord leading you. Are there “deceitful, money hungry, dishonest ministries”? Yes, I’m sure there are but and they’ll collapse on themselves…sinking sand doesn’t last very long.
    I encourage you not to choke on things that come up against religious ideas. The Pharisees choked on people getting healed on the Sabbath. Many today are fine until someone includes monetary circumstances in their teachings, unless it is the attributes & nobility of poverty. If God loved lack and poverty He’d live that way. The point is to get people out of poverty/debt and into productivity/freedom.
    On your perspective of “seed faith”. I cannot emphasize enough how, well, wrong you are about it “always turns out to be money and money sent to their ministries”. Seed faith is…faith in a seed. When I planted my petunias a couple of months ago I fully believed those seeds could and would produce petunias. It took awhile but about a month ago they sprouted and after awhile more the leaves came on and now the flowers are starting to appear in much greater numbers. Humm, if the kingdom of heaven operates on the system of a seed (Mark 4 and so so so many other scriptures) why shouldn’t I depend on it?
    Whether it’s encouragement, love, friendship, time, talents, or money…sowing it will produce after it’s own kind. It’s the safeguard built in to the system. How chaotic would it be if I couldn’t depend on planting corn seed to produce corn. The natural realm operates this way because that’s how the kingdom of heaven works. By the way, I happen to think the sowing of nearly 30 airplanes(which Kenneth & Gloria have done over the last 40 years) in tip top shape is a tremendous example to follow.
    We live to give and give to live. It’s not about the “American Dream” of greed and comfort. It about getting back to living how things were originally designed in Eden. Everything was provided in the garden, there was no lack…it was perfect🙂 and man was to guard and keep it and replenish the earth, which was not limited to having kids. The garden was to spread and multiply all over the earth. This prosperity was supposed to be for everyone. God had well provided for His children.
    Think about it, even when Jesus fed the 5000 it multiplied beyond the needs of the crowd! There was more than enough. Nowadays, to the one wanting to be critical He’s be criticized for being wasteful and probably even extravagant.
    John Macarthur, John Piper, and Ravi Zacharias are fine men. I have no beef with them. I do believe some things different then them but that’s ok. I’m not going to be party to a house divided against itself.
    I do know our destiny…we will come to the unity of the faith! We won’t come to the unity of the doctrine, so lets believe God together and take the good news to the lost so that every man has a chance to hear about His love and plan of salvation and get to our final destiny🙂

  23. halcyon2 says:

    The “investigation” is losing steam. I bet Sen. Grassley wishes he never started this. He’s got a tiger by the tail he will have problems shaking. It has turned on him.

    By the way, where are some results from all this disclosure from those who have provided it all? How long does it take his office to sift through? Do these ministries ever get closure on this?

  24. g9momma says:

    skier63:

    AMEN!!!!
    Preach on!
    We need more people like you commenting on this page!

    My husband and I are partners with a couple of the ministries under that are under investigation. At first we took every scripture that was preached and double checked them in the bible. With out fail, KCM lines up with what God has written in the bible.

    I also agree with some of your comments pertaining to seed.
    Every Friday on KCM Kenneth gives an opportunity to tithe into his ministry. But it is important that people know…Kenneth is very clear to say: pray to God where He wants you to sow your seed (tithes & offerings). I have been a partner with KCM for 12 years now, and I HAVE NEVER SEEN Kenneth, Gloria, his children, or any guest person ask for or beg for money or gifts at any given time.

    These ministries go to all corners of the earth TEACHING about God’s love. They teach at least 11 months of 12…regardless of fatigue or circumstances at hand. These ministries teach about how God’s love is for the sinner as well as the person that believes. These ministries also teach people to let go of the past, failures, bad choices and how to become more successful and have more of a blessed future. I praise God for these ministries that are so very bold and couragious to continue to teach God’s uncompromising word from the bible.

  25. Black David says:

    “AMEN!!!!
    Preach on!
    We need more people like you commenting on this page!”

    TRANSLATION: We are too weak to stand alone in the world. We require a collective to validate our convictions.

  26. poreagus says:

    The fact is that God wants to prosper his people. Look at Solomon. The Bible “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” But what people don’t understand is that these ministers have submitted them selves to God and given up there life to preach his word. They have made them selves poor and God blessed them. They may seem rich in the eyes of man but are poor in spirit, and have everything because of God and not because of there own great works. There is no hypocrisy here. People who give to Copeland’s ministry are aware of how the money is spent and are blessing him for his servant hood.

  27. sdhines says:

    skier63 (and all the others who have commented with support for Kenneth Copeland,

    Thank you for your comments. I have the same love for Kenneth Copeland as I do for any person. Part of love includes pointing out when someone is dead wrong in something. I have watched Kenneth and his band of disciples (Creflo DOLLAR, Jesse Duplantis) and many others for quite some time. I have read their works and have watched hours of their teachings. These men grossly misinterpret the Bible, isolate verses in order to teach them out of context and routinely use peoples emotions to amass a great fortune for themselves.

    Seeds do indeed produce after their kind, but seed faith in regard to money is not a biblical concept. When Jesus talks about seed he says that it is the Word of God. Jesus used many such phrases in His parables. He never, never hawked people for money, like so many of these ministries do. Be honest, search the scriptures for all they are worth, not for what these false prophets claim. The issue with Copeland and money is just one among many in his twisted theology. He ascribes to Christ taking on a satanic nature and suffering in Hell – NOT BIBLICAL therefore not truth, so what we have is a man who is teaching a heretical doctrine all for the sake of profit.

    I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to the deceit that these men sell as a bill of goods every day. They are millionaires because people keep sending them money. Yes he might say don’t give unless God moves you, but after listening to his preaching and being hyped up by his false claims, these calls to have “God move you to give” are simply ways to guilt people or trick people into giving.

    Honestly, in as loving a way as I can say it, open your eyes these men are snake-oil salesmen. They are selling the desperate masses a load of lies. Open your heart, pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you into the Truth and read your Bible in context, forgetting any ideas you may have picked up from these televangelists. That is how I escaped from the lies that these types of preachers push. Jesus made himself poor, I am not saying poverty is a virtue, but we should learn to be content with very little or with very much with righteousness in our lives. We should not be searching a fortune. God does not promise to financially prosper all of His people. He does not promise us perfect health in the here and now. He does not consider us in the same class as himself as Copeland has said so many times.

    Please look into these issues with an open mind for yourself and see that these types of TV preachers are liars and thieves. Does this mean I have no love toward them? Absolutely not, pointing out errors is not unloving. Would you go to a doctor who was afraid to tell you that you had cancer because he did not want to come off as unloving? Of course not. You would thank him that you might seek treatment to be healed. Please seek the truth, don’t listen to these men. Don’t support these millionaires in their goal to store up for themselves. This does not apply to all preachers or all on TV, but it is apparent when a good 50-60% of sermons are about: Tithing, Seed-Faith Offerings, etc… How much time did Jesus spend trying to get people to give his ministry money. How many of Paul’s letters spent time telling the churches how to name it and claim it. Take it all in context with the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Look through the old commentaries and see how much of the mumbo-jumbo that is being preached now shows up in the classics by John Bunyan, or Matthew Henry, or A.W. Tozer or Andre Murray, How many of these great teachers spent their time in the pulpits or in writing to bilk people out of their money or to convince them that they should have power over all of their circumstances. God is sovereign – true prayer is to line up with His Will, not to get Him to give you things according to yours.

    In closing all of this is said in a spirit of love and concern for what I see (and many others including John Macarthur, John Piper, Hank Hannegraff, etc.) as a huge problem with the church today. May God express HIS Truth to you in all things.

  28. truthwins says:

    Doug, thank you very much for standing up for Kenneth. Your blog is a fresh moment that allows us to show our support for Kenneth.

    Ive noticed that many on here that point fingers, and make claims that they have love for the people they are about to rip apart, cant quote one scripture (that is supported by other scriptures) that validates their comments. When they say “These men grossly misinterpret the Bible”, they cant quote one instance and back it up. They’re much like the “Hit and Run” media that blather falsehoods just to stir the winds, and then stands back to see what blind lemming will follow them.

    Then goes on to refer to Kens false teachings, but cant quote a time or place it was said, another “Hit and Run”. I know if they made the effort to find the quote, they would be gone for so long that we would never hear from them again, sigh.

    If Kenneth was so good at “hype” and fooling the simple minded as this person says, then they too would be the first to empty their pockets, because those who take the easy path and fail to document accusations, find the ground they base their claims on, is about to be washed back out to the sea.

    Their “faith” in their “doubt” is working, because they dont believe we’ve been given the power (ability) to get wealth (Joshua), they dont believe in walking in health, ( I guess Jesus took the stripes for nothing), and they are just waiting for Government handouts, (guess we know which party they belong to).

    And 50-60% of his sermons are about “Tithing, Seed-Faith Offerings, etc…”, thats called “Preaching the Word with Signs Following”, no wonder the “Seeds” that have been planted produce after themselves, thats what has made Ken successful, he has planted so much seed that I would be the one calling him false if he were poor. Seed produces after its own kind, and this has been the most successful year Ive ever had in business. Ive given into Kens ministry, and others like him, more this and last year than Ive ever given before, and its truly a blessing to be able to have more than enough left over.

    It’s sad that some feel they have to stoop low enough to make it sound like they’re “saying it in a spirit of love” (give me a pentecostal break). If they really listened (yeah right) enough to Kens messages to know that 50-60% of his teachings were financial success teachings, then the other 40-50% they heard about the Blood of the Lamb, Forgiveness, and Righteousness would have been enough to enlighten them. So while some look for diamonds in the rough, others seem to be satisfied with throwing dirt.

    Keep up the good work Doug, I enjoy listening to you over and over on Kens site, and each time you come on to speak.

  29. trekker2 says:

    As to the subject of the article here – it appears Mr. Grassley is going on the defensive, having drawn fire and had limited success with this investigation. He’s still knocking on the back door. Jesus did not answer all questions put to him by the religious leaders of his day, who were part of his government. He smelled the same rat these holdouts do. Most of these ministries have passed IRS audits and in recent years. Mr. Grassley seems frustrated with the front door results and goes to media stunts. This latest appears to be a weak attempt to gather some steam.

    What about the ones who provided en toto? Don’t they get some closure by now? The investigation started out of bounds with the trickster stunt of a press conference before contacting the investigees. He began unofficially and continues that way. Okay, he’s got his pound of flesh over his dislike of personal wealth among church leaders, so move on. They’re not hiding anything and he knows it. The IRS has relevant records and the ministries would provide updates to them. Mr. Grassley is on bad ground and needs our prayers, along with Mr. Ole, et al. God is able to bring them to higher ground. Regardless, he is upholding those who are cooperating with him and showing the moral courage to stand in an uncomfortable place.

  30. sdhines says:

    truthwins,

    Thank you for your follow-up on my posting. I did not post a lot of documentation on when Kenneth said certain things. The fact of the matter is, and I do say what I say out of love. Just like I scold my children if they are about to touch a hot stove. And just as the apostles John and Paul both pointed out, by name, people within the church who were distorting the gospel. So that being said, the fact of the matter on Kenneth is, he regularly distorts, twists and misrepresents scriptures during his teachings. I wasn’t writing a formal thesis, just putting out what is on my heart. The gospel being preached by the vast majority of the televangelists out there is not the gospel. As far as quoting scripture, if we look at scripture, in context, we see that it is not God’s intention to make us into “Little gods” as is espoused by so many of the regular TBN word of faithers. Nor is it His intention to make us all financially wealthy and healthy in the here and now. We are rich in Christ. We are healed by his stripes, healed in our relationship to the father, healed of our sins if we repent and believe and healed in the future when Christ fully restores all things. We are simply not all meant to be rich no matter how much time we spend “claiming it.”

    When I used the 50-60% numbers I was simply throwing a number out of the amount of times that I have heard him speak and what it probably equated to. It was in no way meant to be an accurate scientific number.

    You seem to have Ken up on a pedestal. Open your eyes to the scripture. Christ said the kingdom of God was worth selling all that we have in order to attain it. To count all things as loss for the glory of Christ. To die to ourselves.

    Being a millionaire is proof that Ken is preaching the word correctly and living obediently. Here’s a quote of one of his teachings “”I say this with all respect so that it don’t upset you too bad, but I say it anyway, when I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, ‘I Am,’ I just smile and say, ‘Yes, I Am, too!'”. So here he equates himself with Jesus as being as much God as Christ was.

    Far above the bad and un-biblical teachings on money are the downright heresies that he propagates similar to the above quote.

    Like I said earlier. Get past your pre-conceived notions that everything that Ken (and the rest of the word-of-faithers) preach and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. Then see what the scriptures say. Get past the idea of equating riches on earth, with the true spiritual riches that Christ bestows upon us. Open the word and read what it says, not what Ken Copeland says that it says. What does it say , in context, in its totality?

    What about the persecution of the apostles? What about all of the early martyrs in the church? What about people of great faith like Joni Ericson-Tada who don’t receive their healing in the here and now? What about Paul being shown all that he had to suffer for Christ; the beatings, the whippings, the stonings, the shipwrecks, the arrests? What about the fact that all the apostles were martyred with the exception of John? What about all the faithful preachers and missionaries in the world who truly become poor for the sake of the gospel and stay poor for their entire journey here on earth?
    Do all of these like faith? Are/Were they insufficient in their understandings of God’s word? Are/were they negatively confessing things that came to pass on their lives? God is the one who speaks things into existence… not human beings, not Christians.. I am not an expert or writing a scholarly dissertation here. I am simply some one who is concerned about the the dangerous doctrines that are being passed off on people as being from God. For a more thorough take on these subjects check out these articles by John Macarthur, read what he says compare it and test it next to scripture, pray for illumination of the Word and then decide for yourself:

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/WRDFAITH.HTM

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/CHAOS12.HTM

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/qacharismatics.htm

  31. sdhines says:

    truthwin,

    I have to post one additional thought. As I looked through your post again I noticed many personal attacks on me. I never once said that people who listen to or give money to these preachers are “simple”. One can be deceived without being simple. I refrained from any personal attacks and regardless of what you believe about me or my intentions, I am stating what I have found, by the grace of God, on my own journey. I used to believe much the same as you do regarding these types of preachers. I don’t have faith in my doubt as you say and I also don’t have faith in my faith as is espoused by so many word of faith preachers. My faith is in the one sure, secure and faithful source — God Almighty. Instead of attacking, please look at some of the resources provided in my 2nd post, pray for God to illuminate His word to you and decide for yourself. For more helpful information you can pick up a copy of “Charismatic Chaos” by John Macarthur or go to YouTube and search on “John Piper Prosperity Gospel” You should find this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukcV-xtU3hc watch, pray, discern and decide. May God bless you richly with His truth.

  32. sdhines says:

    Here are some references for you:
    Jesus was infected/injected with satan’s sin nature in order for redemption to work

    “He [Jesus] is suffering all that there is to suffer. There is no suffering left apart from Him. His emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing [hell]. And the Devil thinks he’s got Him destroyed.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Believer’s Voice of Victory program, April 21, 1991)

    “The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, ‘My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?’ You don’t know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, ‘Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there — the sign of Satan? Why didn’t you put a lamb on that pole?’ And the Lord said, ‘Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.’ He said, ‘I accepted, in My own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off.”

    Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

    Jesus “put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned].”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Incarnation, 1985, audiotape #01-0402, side 1)

    Jesus is said to have remarked, “It was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross….I accepted, in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

    [Jesus] “had to give up His righteousness”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Incarnation, 1985, audiotape #01-0402, side 2)

    “How did Jesus then on the cross say, ‘My God.’ Because God was not His Father any more. He took upon Himself the nature of Satan. And I’m telling you Jesus is in the middle of that pit. He’s suffering all that there is to suffer, there is no suffering left . . . apart from Him. His emaciated, little wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing and the devil thinks He’s got Him destroyed. But, all of a sudden God started talking.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Believer’s Voice of Victory, TBN, April 21, 1991)
    The cross wasn’t enough, Jesus redeemed us in hell

    “When Jesus cried, ‘It is finished!’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne…Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Jesus — Our Lord of Glory, Believer’s Voice of Victory Magazine 10, 4; April 1982, p. 3)

    “Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition, 1991, p.129)

    “He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell….He allowed Himself to come under Satan’s control…every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him….They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Price of It All, 3)
    Jesus died spiritually

    “Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. Now it wasn’t the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that price. It wasn’t physical death anybody could do that.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audio tape #020022)
    Jesus was the first born again man

    “He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived … Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him … [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived … In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus … [in] the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life … He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles … Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell … Jesus … was raised up a born-again man … The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited … !”

    Kenneth Copeland (“The Price of it All,” Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4)

    “In hell He [Jesus] suffered for you and for me. The Bible says hell was made for Satan and his angels. It was not made for men. Satan was holding the Son of God there illegally … The trap was set for Satan and Jesus was the bait.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Walking in the Realm of the Miraculous, 1979, p. 77)

    “The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, “Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.” He said, “Think this way — a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.” And I threw my Bible down… like that. I said, “What?” He said, “A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.” He said, “You are the very image, the very copy of that one.” I said, “Goodness, gracious sakes alive!” And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, “Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?” He said, “Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, ’cause you’re a reborn man too.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Substitution and Identification, tape #00-0202, side 2)

    ” …that Word of the Living God went down into that pit of destruction and charges the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly, His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil has never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex his spiritual muscles… Jesus was born again — the firstborn from the dead.”

    Kenneth Copeland (The Price of it All, Believer’s Voice in Victory, vol 19 September 1991, p.9)

    “He [Jesus] was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for Adam’s treason… There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the earth, when the command of God says ‘That’s enough, loose him and let him go’.”

    Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)
    Anyone could have redeemed us

    “It wasn’t a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin…anybody can do that.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audiotape #BCC-19, side 1)

    “Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only. When He said ‘It is finished’ on that cross, He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun; there were still three days and three nights to be gone through.”

    Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

    “The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, “Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.” He said, “Think this way — a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.” And I threw my Bible down… like that. I said, “What?” He said, “A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.” He said, “You are the very image, the very copy of that one.” I said, “Goodness, gracious sakes alive!” And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, “Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?” He said, “Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, ’cause you’re a reborn man too.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Substitution and Identification, 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2)
    The church is in control, not God

    “As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Our Covenant with God, 1987, p. 32)
    God is banned from the earth until the church unleashes him/allows him in

    “God’s on the outside looking in. He doesn’t have any legal entree into the earth. The thing don’t belong to Him. You see how sassy the Devil was in the presence of God in the book of Job? God said, “Where have you been?” Wasn’t any of God’s business. He [Satan] didn’t even have to answer if he didn’t want to … God didn’t argue with him a bit! You see, this is the position that God’s been in … Might say, “Well, if God’s running things He’s doing a lousy job of it.” He hadn’t been running ’em, except when He’s just got, you know, a little bit of a chance.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 1)

    “Here’s where we’re gonna depart from ordinary church: Now, you see, God is injecting His Word into the earth to produce this Jesus — these faith-filled words that framed the image that’s in Him … He can’t just walk onto the earth and say, “Let it be!” because He doesn’t have the right. He had to sneak it in here around the god of this world that was blockin’ every way that he possibly could.”

    Kenneth Copeland (The Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 2)

    “The Bible says that God gave this earth to the sons of men … and when [Adam] turned and gave that dominion to Satan, look where it left God. If left Him on the outside looking in … He had no legal right to do anything about it, did He? … He had injected Himself illegally into the earth — what Satan had intended for Him to do was to fall for it — pull off an illegal act and turn the light off in God, and subordinate God to himself … He intended to get God into such a trap that He couldn’t get out.”

    Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017)

    “Adam committed high treason, and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given to him was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in … After Adam’s fall, God found Himself in a peculiar position … God needed an avenue back into the earth … God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to God … Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Our Covenant with God, 1987, pp. 8-11)

    “God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. He had to have covenant with somebody. He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn’t come. God is on the outside looking in. In order to have any say so in the earth, He’s going to have to be in agreement with a man here.”

    Kenneth Copeland (God’s Covenants With Man II, 1985, audiotape #01-4404, side 1)
    These men think they’re Gods!

    “Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Now We Are In Christ Jesus, 1980, p. 24)

    “You are not a spiritual schizophrenic — half-God and half-Satan — you are all-God”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Now We Are in Christ Jesus, 1980, p.16-17)

    “You don’t have a god in you, you are one”

    Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Love, 1987, audiotape #02-0028, side 1)

    “I say this with all respect so that it don’t upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, ‘I Am,’ I just smile and say, ‘Yes, I Am, too!'”

    Kenneth Copeland (Believer’s Voice of Victory, TBN July 9, 1987)

    “Now Peter said by exceeding great and precious promises you become partakers of the divine class. All right, are we gods? We are a class of gods!”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Praise The Lord, TBN February 5, 1986)

    “Adam was created in God’s own image and likeness, a spirit-being…[and] takes on the nature of his spiritual father or lord.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Our Covenant with God, 1987, p.7-8)

    “Gods reason for creating Adam was his desire to reproduce himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself. And in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God, He was not almost like God, He was not subordinate to God even … Adam was as much like God as you can get, just the same as Jesus. Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh”

    Kenneth Copeland (Following the faith of Abraham Audio, #01-3001 side 1)
    The Anointing

    “Believers are not to be led by logic,” he writes. “We are not even to be led by good sense”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Faith, 7)

    “You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that God used when he created the heavens and the earth.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Inner Image of the Covenant, side 2)
    The 100 fold theory

    “Do you want a hundredfold return on your money? Give and let God multiply it back to you. He urges his supporters, “Invest heavily in God; the returns are staggering, … “Every man who invests in the Gospel has a right to expect the staggering return of one hundredfold.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Laws of Prosperity , pg.67)
    The importance of earthly riches

    “The basic principle of the Christian life is to know that God put our sin, sickness, disease, sorrow, grief, and poverty on Jesus at Calvary,” he asserts. “For Him to put any of this on us now would be a miscarriage of justice.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Troublemaker, 6)

    “Well, they say, you need balance in this, get out there in that hyper faith, that name-it-and-claim-it, that blab-it-and-grab-it. YEAH! We named it and claimed it and got it. (crowd cheers) Blabbed it and grabbed it and still got it ! Hallelujah! And our bills are paid.”

    Kenneth Copeland (speaking at John Hagee’s Church, August 18, 1999)
    Health is yours for the claiming

    “You began to meditate on those scriptures until you built an inner image of yourself healed. As that image grew more crisp and clear, you began to expect — or hope for — that image to become a reality. Eventually, faith rose up, put substance to that internal image and turned it into an external reality. That spiritual process always works the same way. Hope forms the image according to the Word, then faith rises up and gives substance to that image, making it a reality in the natural, physical realm. … Actually, what you did is activate the scriptural process described in Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for … Boil it down to its simplest form, and you could write it like this: God’s Word+Hope+Faith=Manifestation! … You’ll be expecting the very presence of God to rise up in you so powerfully that instead of believing for healing every six weeks, you’ll walk in divine health every day!”

    Kenneth Copeland (“Expect The Glory”, Believer’s Voice of Victory magazine, January 1998, p. 5)

    “… It wasn’t Peter’s shadow that healed them. What was it? That field of Glory that surrounded him. That’s what [sic] God put hope in you to expect. The Glory! … It will flood the earth when we meditate upon the Glory of God so much that hope rises up and produces an image. Then faith will release the Glory of God from the inside of us where we can’t see it to the outside where we can see it! … Does this sound wild to you? Well, it’s not! If you’ll go back and read the Bible, you’ll see that’s what Christianity is all about. God intended for the Body of Christ to walk through this earth with such a manifestation of His presence in our lives that it would either scare people spitless … or draw them into the Kingdom of God!”

    Kenneth Copeland (“Expect The Glory”, Believer’s Voice of Victory magazine, January 1998, p. 6)
    Results of lack of faith

    “God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith,”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Freedom from Fear, 1983, 11)
    4th Dimension of non-carnal attainment

    “Pray to yourself, because I’m in your self and you’re in My self. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord.”

    Kenneth Copeland (“Believer’s Voice of Victory”, Feb. 1987, p.9)
    The faith force

    “Faith is a power force,” he claims. “It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Faith, 1989, 10)

    “Faith is a spiritual force….It is substance. Faith has the ability to effect natural substance.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 1982, 8)

    “The force of gravity…makes the law of gravity work…this force of faith…makes the laws of the spirit world function.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Laws of Prosperity, 1974, 18-19)

    “Faith is God’s source of power”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 1982, 8)

    “Faith was the raw material substance that the Spirit of God used to form the universe.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Authority of the Believer II, 1987, audiotape #01-0302, side 1)

    “The force of faith was controlling His (Jesus’) ministry.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Force of Faith, 9)

    “Man was created to know that great life force and he longs for it in his dreams. Adam had that life force in him before he committed high treason”?

    Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2)

    “God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith.”

    Kenneth Copeland (pirit, Soul, & Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)

    “Faith is God’s source of power”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Freedom From Fear, 1983. p. 12)
    Words are spiritual containers

    “Words are spiritual containers,”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 15; cf. 14)

    The “force of faith is released by words.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Authority of the Believer II, 1987, audiotape #01-0302, side 1)

    “God used words when He created the heaven and the earth….Each time God spoke, He released His faith — the creative power to bring His words to pass.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Power of the Tongue, 1980, 4)

    “As a born-again believer, you are equipped with the Word. You have the power of God at your disposal. By getting the Word deep into your spirit and speaking it boldly out your mouth, you release spiritual power to change things in the natural circumstances.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Power of the Tongue, 1980, 15)

    “Words create pictures, and pictures in your mind create words. And then the words come back out your mouth….And when that spiritual force comes out it is going to give substance to the image that’s on the inside of you. Aw, that’s that visualization stuff! Aw, that’s that New Age! No, New Age is trying to do this; and they’d get somewhat results out of it because this is spiritual law, brother.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Believer’s Voice of Victory, TBN, March 28, 1991)

    “Words are the most sacred things….This is a word planet…governed by words…created by words….Words cause it to function…cause life…cause death….Words go on forever….Words are holy.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (The Abrahamic Covenant, side 1)
    Sensual manifestations

    “Everything that you’re able to see or touch, anything that you can feel, anything that’s perceptive to the five physical senses, was originally the faith of God, and was born in the substance of God’s faith.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Spirit, Soul, & Body Part 1, 1985, audiotape #01-0601, side 1)
    Above Reproach – testing their spirits

    [Copeland claims Jesus told him personally in a vision:] “Don’t be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of Me, should they not speak that way of you? The more you get to be like Me, the more they’re going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and He was in Me. Hallelujah. That’s what you’re doing.”

    Kenneth Copeland (“Take Time To Pray,” Believer’s Voice of Victory 15, February 1987, 9)
    God is the biggest failure in the bible

    “I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is…The biggest one in the whole Bible is God…I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least – that’s a big loss, man….Now, the reason you don’t think of God as a failure is He never said He’s a failure. And you’re not a failure till you say you’re one.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Praise-a-thon on Praise The Lord, April 1988)
    Jesus was raped by Roman soldiers

    “Let me tell you something folks. Anybody in here that’s ever been sexually abused, listen to me right now. Listen to me very carefully. The Bible’s very careful about the way it says these things. But down there in that dungeon, Romans, ungodly men, ungodly men, put Him (Jesus) to every kind of abuse that you can think of. There is no sin that Jesus didn’t bare. There is no thing, there is no such thing as a sexual abuse on somebody that Jesus doesn’t know firsthand what it’s all about. He’s been where you are. I don’t care what you’ve been through, Jesus has been through it. And everythings done to him that we couldn’t even speak of.”

    Kenneth Copeland (The Resurrection Truth)
    God’s physical description

    “God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words struck Adam’s body in the face. His body and God’s were exactly the same size.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Holy Bible, Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition 1991, p. 45)

    “If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike….If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and act and sound exactly alike….The image is that they look just alike, but the likeness is that they act alike and they are alike….All of God’s attributes, all of God’s authority, all of God’s faith, all of God’s ability was invested in that man.”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Authority of the Believer IV? 1987, audiotape #01-0304), side 1)

    “The Bible said He measured the heavens with a 9 inch span. Now the span is the difference, distance between the end of the thumb and the end of the little Finger. And, and that Bible said, in fact the amplified translation translates the Hebrew text that way. That He measured out the heavens with a 9 inch span. Well, I got a ruler and measured mine, and my span’s 8 3/4 inches long. So now God’s span is a quarter of an inch, a quarter inch longer than mine. So you see, that faith didn’t come billowing out of some giant monster somewhere. It came out of the heart of a being that is very uncanny the way He’s very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6′ 2 “, 6′ 3”, that weighs somewhere in the neighbourhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, has a span of 8 and, I mean nine inches across – stood up and said “Light be [Let it be?]”, and this universe situated itself and went into motion. Glory to God.”

    Kenneth Copeland (“pirit, Soul, & Body Part 1” 1985, audio tape #01-0601, side 1)

    God is a “spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet.”

    Kenneth Copeland (Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977

  33. trekker2 says:

    Good heavens, man – where’s you walk with God? You are not responsible for someone’s ministry and teachings. God has a calling and place for you that should be very occupying and satisfying. The people around you need you. How about simplifying things down to being a good Christian walking in the steps of Jesus everyday for yourself right where you are. That’s a full-time job. Let God be God over these ministers. Feed on some life from your bible every day for your life and walk, issues right around you, being used of God, helping people, sharing the love of Jesus and just enjoying the Lord. This isn’t good for you, all this holing up and going over and over this stuff.

    Frankly, I find these ministries that devote a lot of time to correcting other ministers out of touch with the overall plan of God. Where is that calling and ministry in the New Testament? Watchdog? The Holy Spirit has that job, along with local church leaders over their flocks in a loving way. Don’t these men have ministries of their own, a message to get out, people to win to the Lord?

    I find it unhealthy and harmfu, all this sifting and sorting into someone else’s calling. Jesus is the Head of the church. Pray, if you are really concerned. The Holy Spirit is a real reacher of hearts and minds. He can work in this. Don’t let it waste you.

    I’ve listened to Hank Hanegraff on the radio a time or two and, I’m sorry, he can be just rude and unlovely to callers about these ministers and things he doesn’t agree with. That’s not a good spirit. That sets off a warning light for me. A wrong spirit is a much more serious error than wrong doctrine. If you hang around it, you will pick up on it. It doesn’t tend to life. It doesn’t bear good fruit to bog down in criticism and go into anger and testiness.

    Hey, brother, get refreshed in Jesus all over again and let him handle his church. Get outside and enjoy the rest of the summer, focusing on people you can help and things you can do something about right around you. They need you. You’ll come alive in God all over again and have the joy of your salvation restored! Cast your cares on the Lord and go ahead and live in and for him. He loves you and has plans for you every day. Don’t miss them. You have your own life and work in God.

  34. halcyon2 says:

    On the article from Mr. Wead:

    The Grassley “investigation” is wearing thin and running out of steam. The nepotism ploy is just the latest absurdity. Retort on this is building – from the public, supporters, ministries totally unconnected with the WOF message and even within his own party.

    Anyone else wonder about the status of those two who have divvied up their records en toto? Mr. Grassley’s got what he said he wanted from them. So, what’s the result? The IRS turns this around in a few months. He’s stalled with the ball in his court now. Why? Verdict please. Innocent or guilty? Cleared or smeared? Either produce the mud or dry up. Instead, they are left dangling on the circus wire.

    Judicial process in the US is expected to give a ruling, especially when the media spotlight has been drawn to it. It is no wonder some of the group have chosen not to be drawn into the show. We now see it has made little difference whether you complied or not. Everyone is still left in that cage Mr. Grassley shoved them in with everyone gawking and poking at them. The holdouts were right.

  35. g9momma says:

    Trekker2 –

    I do agree with you on your points. People who know God (intimately) should know better than to judge one another – but instead pray for each other. I understand many people are concerned about how these ministries conduct their business. However, it is for God to guide the government to the truth of the matter and to judge them. It is not for us to judge them on pure assumption.

    Moreover teachers of the gospel are judged on a different level and more sternly than the person that does not know the truth or is ignorant. For us who read the bible in Jeremiah 8:8 & 9 points out what God will do to the priests (or teachers) that twist the truth. So, please just pray and intercede that God’s truth be known in this situation.

    I personally do not believe these ministries that are under investigation are in the wrong. I’ve watched at least three of the ministries listed, and the ones I do know of do so very much to assist mankind above and beyond most ministries. God does want His teachers to show prosperity, and they should be prosperous…they represent God. Our God is not poor. (Haggai 2:8) God delights in the prosperity of His people. (Ps. 35:27) And given that all the IRS audits came back with a clean bill of health, seems to me that Ps. 112 provails in this case.

    Never the less, the judgement of God’s teachers is up to God. We who know God should not fight amongst each other. That is division – and a house divided against itself will fall.

    I have no issue with investigating…however the questions that invade their rights to provide MY personal information and that of all these ministries partners, and to invade the rights of all the ‘guest’ speakers for these ministries….now in that I have a problem. I know how much I give to these teachers – and would gladly give more if I could. Justice is a good thing. Having family work in the ‘family’ business is not a crime. Having a jet is not a crime. Most huge corporations have more than one jet. Being rich is not a crime either. Every financial question that does not invade the ministries rights have all been answered in a timely fashion. So from my own personal research – the ministries have complied with the IRS – in KCM’s case, they ASKED to be audited and came back in good standing.

    Please just stay in continous prayer for these men and women of God. If they are in the wrong, God will surely make the truth known. It is God’s strict command to walk in love. So do just that. Walk in love. Pray for one another.

    If you do not agree with the doctrines of these ministries…take it up with your god. Each will be judged individually and accordingly. Judge not lest ye be judged.

  36. truthwins says:

    sdhines – can’t you pull anything from this century, you found one article that was less than a decade ago, congratulations. Do you think you’ve grown spiritually in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years? Maybe you too might see things differently as you grow in the word and your terminology is going to develop over the years. We are in the year 2008, can you provide anything recent that goes against the word, doesn’t look like it or you already would have.

    In fact, all you provided us was some good word teaching, thanks. I had forgotten some of Ken’s teaching way back then, but it was good hearing it again. You failed to do anything except that you know how to fill up white space. You didn’t try to debunk anything he said. If anyone hadn’t read your earlier “Hit and Run” slashing’s, they would have just thought you were quoting some of your favorite sayings by Kenneth. All you’ve done is quote Kenneth, and quote the Bible, quote Kenneth, and quote the Bible…… what were you trying to prove. Show us all your superior Bible knowledge and back it with 2 or 3 scriptures EACH where Kenneth is wrong. So far you’ve just shown us where he’s right.

    But thanks for taking us through memory lane.

  37. sdhines says:

    thruthwins,

    I have to start off with a comment on how passive/aggressive your tone is with me. I have not once said anything derogatory or insinuating toward me. You have multiple times taken a passive/aggressive stance toward me. Never once did I claim to have “superior Bible knowledge”. What I provided, in terms of quotes from Kenneth, are not “good teachings”. I was attacked by you for not providing documentation, and now I am being attacked for providing documentation. The list of quotes from Ken, regardless of their timeliness, stand on their own as showing his teachings to be absurd at best, and heretical at worst. Kenneth has added to God’s Word, which is expressly prohibited. God is not a man, man is not a god. If you look at the vast majority of these quotes, you will see that Ken’s theology tends to take God down a notch and deify man. I have not attacked your spiritual walk with God, as has been done to me repeatedly. It seems to me that you have a very closed minded approach to dealing with people that disagree with you. I do not judge anyone’s walk with the Lord, but the Bible commands us to expose darkness. The quotes that I listed from Ken do not require “debunking”. They are blatant mis-truths. Do I judge Ken, or your, or anyone else’s heart or spiritual walk? No I do not. Only the God knows where you all stand. The same applies for me. For you to judge me, simply because I am being obedient in exposing, what I believe the Word considers to be false teaching, you decide to kill the messenger. Not that you are going to believe me, but I do feel and know that my walk with the Lord has, and continues to, be closer every day and that I am growing spiritually. Not that I need to prove that to you and not that I am looking for the approval of men.

    My take on Kenneth (and many other televangelists’) teachings is that we were created by God for His glory. We were created in His image to show forth His glory. Not to speak things that don’t exist into existence. We cannot copy God in this manner. We are not “gods” as so many of these teachers try to prove from scripture. God alone is sovereign, God alone is the Creator, God alone creates reality, we have no say in it other than to be conformed to His will.

    In closing though here is just one that capsulizes what I find to be a major heresy in Ken’s teachings:
    “God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith,”?

    Kenneth Copeland (Freedom from Fear, 1983, 11)
    4th Dimension of non-carnal attainment

    Ps 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.
    My note – God is not subject to our faith, He does what he pleases, not necessarily what pleases us. He alone is sovereign and blessed forever.

    Luke 13:10-13 10 Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way 4raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your cinfirmity.” 13 dAnd He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
    The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Lk 13:10-13
    My note – Jesus was not hindered or helped in any way by this woman’s faith. She did not even ask to be healed. Out of compassion the Lord healed her to show forth His glory.

    Luke 6:44-45 44 6But I say to you, alove your enemies, bless those who curse you, bdo good to those who hate you, and pray cfor those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for dHe makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
    The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Mt 5:43-45
    My note – If God were restrained to only bless us based upon our faith or our confession, then why do unbelievers and the unrighteous receive blessings and problems as well as believers? Because God is sovereign over everything. He is not hindered by our faith or lack of it. He blesses unbelievers everyday with life and all that it has. These blessings will one day, if a person remains apart from Christ, serve as evidence in the judgement of men that prove their thanklessness.

    There are so many quotes above, from Ken, that can be proven wrong again and again from a look at scripture. In closing – Am I saying that I can judge Kenneth’s or anyones hearts or motives, or salvation? Absolutely not, just as no one other than the Lord can judge mine. Am I wrong in exposing clearly heretical views? I don’t think so.
    Eph 5:11 says “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”

    So I will close out by saying that I honestly am not against anyone. No one here seems to believe me, but I say what I say out of Love. Love is not a warm cushy admiration for someone, love is looking out for the best interests of others. It is in Kenneth’s best interest to stop preaching lies and half-truths, to repent and teach the Truth if that is what God wills for him to do. It is in EVERYONE’S best interest to search all things out as the noble Bereans did and to not listen to preachers who are selling their false teachings as the gospel. Search the Word for what it says about God, not what Kenneth teaches you about God. Take him down from his pedestal and take a good, long, honest look at what he is teaching compared to what the Bible says.

    One final thing though. Yes many of the quotes I found are older quotes, however these are teachings that are still making their way into people’s hearts. These are false teachings and Kenneth has never (to my knowledge) repented of these false teachings publicly. As such it doesn’t matter if he said them 50 years ago or last week, he will be judged with a stiffer judgement, since he is considered a teacher by so many (including himself).

    I hope that these remarks are taken as they are intended, not as an attack, but as an exposition of the darkness contained in the erroneous teachings presented by Kenneth Copeland.

    And truthwins despite your attacking and sarcastic approach to me, I bear no ill feelings. But (and I am assuming that you believe in positive confession and the power of your words, I don’t subscribe to this teaching but anyway) since you obviously believe in the power of your words – how does sarcasm and attacking someone’s heart and credibility fall into your theology? Your sarcastic and passive/aggressive tone is obvious to anyone who has read this thread. Isn’t the intent behind the words more important than the words themselves? Where is the spirit of love in your words to me. I have simply stated what I believe is true about a certain teacher. Where is your love in attacking my point of view? Maybe you should take some of your own advice and (to quote your own self) “Maybe you too might see things differently as you grow in the word and your terminology is going to develop over the years.”

  38. trekker2 says:

    You perceive these teachings you outline as error and serious error. Yet, that is what you are emphasizing and feeding on. If there’s error, it is because it is contrary to truth. If there’s truth, what is it? What truth(s) do these errors contradict?

    If you wish to serve God by helping people be free of error, speaking in love to warn and instruct them, then where is the truth they are to embrace? Does the bible just give a list of things not to believe? Or does it gives truths to believe? Where are the verses? In order for things to be scriptural, there have to be scriptures. In order for things to be unscriptural, there have to be scriptures that teach otherwise. Where are these scriptures?

    You share in love because you want others to be free of error. Since the truth makes free, would you please share the specific truth that makes free of each error you cite?

    Thank you for your care for and investment in the spiritual welfare of your brothers and sisters.

  39. sdhines says:

    trekker2,

    Thank you for the follow-up. I have included a few verses in previous posts. You are quite right to say that the truths should be given. I ended up at this blog quite by accident and felt compelled to comment. Obviously this has been going back and forth and I am in the minority on this blog-board. I have not provided a point-counterpoint to prove my beliefs for everything. I have been posting in the brief amounts of free-time available to me. I am not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination. I have tried to offer some good resources from well respected pastors a few times, that do a much more thorough job than I could ever hope to do in shedding light on these doctrines. I respectfully and lovingly bow out of this conversation. I do not want to have any more contempt poured out on me by the majority here. I feel that if any interest is piqued by my comments then that person should check out the resources I mentioned, pray for wisdom from God who gives to all liberally and without reproach and search the scriptures comparing what is found (in its totality and in the proper context) and then come to whatever conclusion you might reach.

    I realize that it is hurtful to attack someone who is loved and respected and I may have been hurtful or divisive in my way of presenting things. And for that I ask for your forgiveness. I can only state that early in my Christian walk I respected and believed what many of these (WOF) preachers taught. Through the circumstances that the Lord has laid out for me I was confronted with some serious errors that were being preached and taught. I had to be humbled before God and led toward the truth over a very long and painful period of time which included leaving a church that my family and I loved over (peaceably) over some major doctrinal differences. I cannot say that every move I have made or word that I have said have always been the right thing. But I know what God has done for me (and several other brothers and sisters that I know) since going through my own circumstances. And I simply wanted to bring to light some things that have been shown to me through time in the word and in prayer. I may be wrong about some things and I may be right about some things, but I don’t feel that I am wrong about all the things I have said.

    I do apologize if I have hurt anyone, but do not apologize for what I think was being obedient to God in saying the things I’ve said. If I have come off as judgemental or condemning toward anyone, it was not my intention and in the future I will chose my words more sensitively. It is oftentimes easy to fire off a post very quickly and not realize tha a negative tone might be unintentionally taken. Again my apologies for seeming divisive or harsh toward anyone. If someone takes the time to look into what I have provided in these posts and gets something from it, that is great – praise be to God. If someone takes the time to look into these things, with an open heart, and finds that I am full of it, that is fine too and praise be to God. God bless you and keep you.

  40. truthwins says:

    sdhines,

    To belittle someone such as Kenneth the way you started out,
    and have mildly continued to call his teaching false,
    says to me that you must feel you know more than him, thus
    my reference to you having “superior bible knowledge”.
    Calling his teaching absurd and him being a heretic
    says your eyes must be opened wider than his in your study.
    This is what has given me the impression of your position.

    If you can remember, in the beginning, it says the word was
    with God (the word being Jesus), and it says “and the word
    became flesh, and dwelt among us”. Kenneth is not taking
    God down a notch, He (living in Jesus, and being Jesus,
    part of the trinity) came down here on his own free will.
    We were made in His image, we are not lower than the angels,
    we have a spirit, God created us to have communion with us,
    we are not robots, we have a free will, and we must choose
    to fellowship with God.

    The “debunking” I referred to is valid. You wildly claimed
    Ken to be false, even attempting to quote him, but you never
    quoted scripture (like I suggested) that would prove him wrong.

    Jesus is the head of the church, we are his body here, he can do nothing without us taking action, If God can do anything, He would save all the sinners, but since we’re
    not robots, and have free wills, someone has to take the action and
    preach the word to them, so God uses us to be his feet, his arms, his voice
    here on earth.

    Your quote of Ps 115:3 saying that God is not subject to
    our faith is wrong. True God can heal by a miracle, and bless by a miracle,
    but God expects us to live by faith (Heb. 10:38), it is impossible to
    please God without faith (Heb. 11:6) Jesus commended the woman
    with the issue of blood when she was made whole by saying
    Woman, thy faith hath made thee whole (Mat 9:22) .
    There is a work we are to do, and that is to believe, not sit back
    and whatever happens will happen, that we have no control over life,
    so don’t just take what life hands you, the bible says the thief comes
    to steal, kill, and destroy. We are supposed to ACT on God’s word and
    take an active role in changing the negative into a positive.

    When someone gets born again, they become a son or daughter of God, not
    remaining an outsider. A son or daughter should get to know their Father,
    and that’s what Kenneth is pointing out in many of the achieves you found.

    Your feeling of being attacked comes from stepping into someone’s house
    that believes differently than you, and calling them heretics
    and liars, what else do you expect to get in return. Jesus didn’t go up
    politely to the merchants in Gods temple and try to explain where they
    missed it, He threw them out. So by you coming into someone else’s
    spiritual belief arena, be prepared to get some feedback.

    You say we’re not to speak things into existence, I guess Jesus missed it
    when He spoke the bread and fish into existence. I guess he missed it when
    he told the storm to be at peace, he missed it when he turned water into wine.
    He did many things as examples for us to know our words will have power.
    Why were there so many miracles AFTER Jesus left, with his disciples, and
    now with believers in faith, because we are supposed to do the greater
    things (same but more in quantity) that Jesus said we would be doing.

    You say “we have no say in it other than to be conformed to His will”,
    well His will says “whatsoever you ask, according to my will, I will give
    it you”, so as long as we’re asking according to the word, His will,
    something is going to happen, He wouldn’t have told us to ask and expect
    something if He didn’t want us to expect it.

    You say God is not subject to our faith and quote some old testament verse,
    We’ll, if you’re going to live in the old testament, you’re going to be
    living in doubt like they did for 40 years in the desert. But in the
    new testament, God is VERY subject to our faith, because hes expecting
    us to grow up and not remain infants in the word, but to live by faith.

    What is physical is physical, what is spiritual is spiritual, we are
    a spirit, we have a soul, and we live in a body, (1 thes 5:23), and
    our real nature has to live by faith, which is on the spiritual level,
    its not one of the 5 physical senses. Hebrews talks much about
    living by faith, so understandably if youre only aware of this physical
    world and only take what it gives you, you wont have an understanding
    to stand up and claim success.

    Mat. 8:10 Jesus marveled when he saw the Great Faith, by the actions
    and words of someone.
    Lk 17:6 Jesus told us to at least have the faith of a mustard seed,
    meaning a belief that won’t quit,

    You also said He is not hindered by our faith, OR THE LACK OF IT.
    If you remember Jesus could do no mighty works in his own town because
    of THEIR UNBELIEF, so God IS hindered by our lack of faith.

    If I sounded too rough to your verbal attacks against Ken, it’s probably
    because I was, right now Ken is being attacked from many directions, and
    I for one will stand with him forever. I haven’t had much experience at
    being dignified, so that’s where I need help. I had just been listening
    to Ken on the Internet while I work late at night, and was listening
    to Doug Wead, and they talked about Doug’s blog, so I just happened
    to come in and browse the blog about the time Ken was gettin’ beat on
    again, and I lost it.

    I commend you sdhines for having a nice collection of Kens material
    from his past, you must have followed his teachings back then. I can
    only guess someone or something hurt you badly to cause you to turn
    against his ministry. (ok, whats happening here, is this what my
    soft side sound like, hmmm) I think you may be caught in a battle
    between your early learning, and your current belief, and the
    overflow was easier to release here than elsewhere. Thats good,
    at least here you’re not going to get milky-toast passive agreement,
    and you can be open about your battle.

  41. sdhines says:

    Truthwins,

    Thank you for your follow-up. I said I was bowing out and I am taking the edge off of what I have said. I do believe that we are to live by faith. I do believe that we are to ask what we will according to His will and it will come to pass as He has promised (I’ve had too many answered prayers to ever doubt that). My point is that, and i know there will be disagreements with it, is that God is sovereign and is the object of, not subject to our faith. I can have all the faith in the world but if that faith is misplaced (i.e. not in God) then my faith means nothing. I don’t have faith in my faith, not saying that anyone does. I do believe that God seeks to bless those who have faith in Him, but I also believe that Him being sovereign that the faith we have, if it is true faith in Him, is also a gift from Him. Jesus’ disciples asked Him to increase their faith. I know that God speaks things into existence, and I know that while Jesus was on earth He spoke things into existence. However, my take is, that while we are created in His likeness and are in Him, we do not speak things into existence. If, when we pray according to His will, we see the answer to that prayer come to pass, then we saw it come to pass according to His will, which He allowed us to communion with. I have seen too many people that, just for example, have a headache. Their head hurts, they go around saying “by His stripes I am healed”, they plaster a fake smile on their face and never admit to the fact that they have a headache. They deny truth because they don’t want to make a negative confession.

    To make a long story short, I believe that everything is of, for and to God. Christ came to heal us of our sins, not to promise us diving healing or health in the here and now. I believe God does heal in the here and now, but according to His sovereign plan and mercy. I don’t believe that God needs us, is subject to us or our faith in any way, that He is the Object of our faith. I don’t believe that God was ever locked out of the earth and had to sneak in to steal dominion back from satan because Adam handed the authority over to satan. The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. I do apologize for coming off as arrogant. But, like said earlier, I do not recant of any of my theological views or for offering what I believe to be Truth against some spurious teachings. Matt. 13:58 is translated as “Now He DID not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief” He DID not, not COULD not. God can do all things, in this case, because of their lack of faith, He DID not. His hands were never tied because of their lack of faith, rather He stayed His own hand. God is ABSOLUTELY sovereign, He is not served by any man as though He needed anything.

    I do not live in the Old Testament, but I also do not negate it. God always seeks those who operate in faith. He is not bound by our faith, because He is the supplier of and object of our faith. But faith does please Him. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, He has always wanted us to live by faith and blesses those that do. Not always with health & wealth, but with spiritual blessings. Sometimes physical blessings, but not always.

    I will end by agreeing to disagree on some points. But agreeing with you that we are to live by faith.

    That being said and many things being left unsaid, I pray that that God bless you and keep you. Take care.

  42. g9momma says:

    sdhines ~

    I want to thank you for being open about how you feel and what you believe.
    I understand you are firmly fixed on your belief.
    But what is really being accomplished here?
    It appears as if ‘doctrines’ are being argued – whose right and who is not.

    Yes God is soverin, and Jesus did say what so ever we ask…is healing God’s will? Does it line up with God’s word and what He authorizes? Yes, absolutely it does. God already made up His mind when He sent Jesus to the cross. All that Jesus did…we are supposed to do too. Preaching to the poor the gospel (good news), healing the sick, raising the dead…those words are in red…right out of Jesus mouth from the Father above. Many christians are at different levels of their learning experience – one has spent more time in what the bible states over healing, but not in prospirity and so on.

    The enemy wants to divide the believers…divide their doctrines, divide by enviornment, divide by sex, divide by politics, by past experience – anything and everything just to get us divided. A house divided against itself will fall…the devil knows that. The enemy wants us divided – we are easier to conquor that way.

    I love that KCM teaches directly from the scripture! He took the time to learn from many translations down – studied jewish history and their language to get a better understanding of what exactly the bible is saying because of the many translations passed down through time – given words do have different meanings from different languages.

    I am a partner with KCM – throughout the years I have been diligent with physically looking up each and every scripture Kenneth has quoted – and then studied the scriptures given afterwards. I believe in the bible. I believe the promises given in the New Covenant that was perfected for us non-jewish (heathen) people. Kenneth teaches directly from the bible and direction given from God. Because Ken does this…he and his family is prosperous – just as God promised to those who hear and follow God’s instructions given from the bible.

    I suggest – we ALL go and pray regarding the situations surrounding these ministries. What does GOD SAY ABOUT IT? We need to STOP arguing with one another about who believes what. What kind of witness are we leaving for the non-believer in Jesus when they visit these blogs? They see division.
    They see child like behavior – arguing – nit-picking…and it is unbecoming of people who love Jesus. God is not mocked…what so ever a man sows he will also reap. IF these ministries are in the wrong…God will certianly deal with them. But if they aren’t…those who are smearing the names of these teachers of God…well – you will have to answer to the Father regarding it too. For every idol word spoken – we will have to be accountable for on judgement day.

    Please – please…just love one another. If you must…agree to disagree.
    But stop leaving a bad name for God in your comparing beliefs. It is not accomplishing anything but division and a bad representation of Christ.

  43. g9momma says:

    …it just dawned on me…I didn’t meant to direct this specifically to sdhines…and I’m sorry – that was not my intent.

    The above is directed at truthwins too, and to any other person(s) that are showing a bad name for Jesus. Jesus is love…He never argued doctrines but instead walked in love and went to the word of God.
    🙂

  44. trekker2 says:

    Oh, I don’t know, g9momma. Looks like to me they are sorting things out much more amicably and coming to an understanding. Why don’t we just let them rest.

  45. halcyon2 says:

    Agreed. Proverbs 26:17 – Proverbs 10:19

  46. four4seasons says:

    Shout Amen somebody.

  47. four4seasons says:

    The Grassley investigation has just spun one further dimension out of orbit. Didn’t we all hear at the beginning that this was not about doctrine – no, no, not at all – and now it is about nepotism. They’ve just made obvious what many saw from the beginning — that it was never about financial records. Good summary from a poster above – the holdouts were right.

  48. budden says:

    The greatest litmus test for any ministry is: do his children follow in his footsteps?
    Copeland’s kids in his ministry verifies it!

  49. marlins says:

    Ye shall know them by their fruit.

    All I know about “Copelandites” is that they are typically carnal in almost all respects.

    The bible is clear as to why.

    1 Corinthians 3: 3-4 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Copeland; are ye not carnal?

    Furthermore, the ministry of Copeland and friends is firmly rooted in lust for things.

    We will all face God, examine yourselves, dear children.

  50. leonecomm says:

    You are quite right Doug. If Moses was alive today, the liberal media would have asked him this question after reading Exodus Chapter 24 “Are you sure that was God asking you to take your older brother and his sons and make them priests” and we are to send all these offering to him and his children. They would have said “Come on Moses you are not hearing from God but making all these up and you know what?, they would have missed the promise land.
    This nation should be careful how they treat annoited people such as Brother Copeland. We know the messiah Christ has come but anyone who will stop God’s plan for man, and total redemtion for all the body of Christ, he will remove. That is what the saying “I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse.”is all about.
    The messages coming from these pulpits are end time message and God will remove any wickedness that stands in its way.

  51. jwinthrop says:

    The Associated Press once had a great journalist as its religious editor. He had been with TIME, if I am not mistaken. And although he was an evangelical, you would never have known what his doctrines were, because he was completely unbiased. I am afraid the Charismatics are in for a rought time. This new AP writer will be able to attack at will, with the backing of the now left leaning AP, and balance that with favorable material on his other fellow evangelicals, and his editors will be too stupid to know what ‘s going on.

    This happened for a long time at the New York Times until it became so gay heavy that anything “Christian” at all became verbotten.

  52. David Black says:

    Then you speakers of holy baby gibberish should start your own newspaper. Who cares what the New York Slimes chooses to write about?

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: