People in Grassley Houses Shouldn’t Throw Stones

Senator Charles Grassley’s inquiry into the six televangelists is not without its irony.  Grassley is apparently making sure that their “prosperity doctrine” is not just a tax dodge to allow them to accumulate personal wealth.  Meanwhile, the Senator helps run the International Christian Leadership Council, a non profit organization that owns its own mansion, Cedars, overlooking the Potomac River on land that has to be worth a fortune.   Grassley is part of the country club, Christian, elitists, who famously run the National Day of Prayer.  I guess they need a little place to relax after the exhausting breakfast.

 At least the six televangelists are consistent.  That is, they truly believe their doctrines, namely, that God wants his people healthy, wealthy and forgiven.  It is something they preached when they were poor. Take away their wealth and put them in jail and they would still preach it.  And incidentally, six more televangelists would emerge because it is not a concept forced on a gullible public as the media would like to believe, it is driven by millions of Christians who subscribe to this particular Biblical interpretation, rightly or wrongly.   The televangelist are in some respects the most accountable of all ministries, they literally rise and fall on their last sermon, which pays all their bills.

 But Grassley apparently believes it is false doctrine, a dodge. So why then does he maintain a mansion on the Potomac?  As a member of the White House senior staff, I was encouraged to come to Cedars and enjoy its pool and tennis courts and its spectacular view of Washington and use it for my own personal relaxation.  It was a place to host important guests coming in for the National Prayer Breakfast.  But why is it wrong for Kenneth Copeland, for example, to practice what he has publicly preached all his life and right for Senator Grassley to violate his own conscience?

 Let me address three points. 

First, regardless of how attractive or unattractive one believes the “prosperity doctrines” to be, they were not conceived by televangelists.  They are scripturally based and one can argue the scriptures any way you like but one cannot say that there is not a rationale for their doctrines.  Indeed, such ideas dominated the church for hundred of years since Constantine.  When Queen Elizabeth ran out of money, she raided the monasteries.  That was where the wealth was.  Our modern, more modest and socially attractive, traditional concepts of Christianity find their origins in St. Francis and the Counter Reformation.  Should all Christians prior to St. Francis be bound to hell?  Or was there some legitimacy in their ideas too?

 Second, this is not a burden on society.  Indeed, if one wants to suggest that the doctrines of televangelists are hurting society one must also look at the teachings of the church that counsel poverty as a virtue and sickness as a test from God or doctrines that protected habitual pedophiles under the banner of “grace.” What has that done to society? 

 In fact, the Senator casts particular scorn on the two Black ministers in the gang of six, ridiculing their doctrine and culture.  “Jesus came into Jerusalem on a donkey, not a Rolls Royce,” he said. The Black Pentecostal community was stunned.  Grassley’s own “non-profit” getaway mansion on the Potomac River is arguably worth much more than many Rolls Royce’s. Today, after years of being enjoined by the scriptures, “slaves obey your masters” a whole new Black middle class has emerged in this country and millions of them owe their spirited rise to these new liberated preachers in their  own community who declared that Jesus died so you can live, so live and live to the fullest.

 And finally, third, this inquiry is not fair.  It hearkens back to old doctrinal rifts within the evangelical movement and plays on the innocence and ignorance of the media who cannot resist a story that is hand delivered to them, work all done, never suspecting that they are being used to settle some old score.  When I was a boy Baptists published books saying that Pentecostals were possessed by demons.  So here is a Baptist senator targeting six Pentecostals and exempting any ministries with Baptist ordination, even if they have since embraced elements of the “prosperity doctrines” themselves and even if their personal lifestyles are more extravagant than his six.  And all that, he says, is coincidental.

 Cardinal Richelieu once said, “Give me four lines written by any man and I can have him tried as a criminal.” Grassley has demanded all credit card receipts since 2001, a move that guarantees a scandal.  And Grassley has now, reportedly asked, for the name of every person who has spoken from the pulpit of Kenneth Copeland’s church for the last four years.

 We all know what this is about.  The Senator’s staff will be looking for good stories, pulled from context and used to show that these doctrines are irrational and that the public should be outraged.  It will be great for a television producer who doesn’t really care who gets hurt as long as they are religious. 

 But is it fair?  A trial of peers?  Not really.  The Senator can destroy who he will without a trial.  It’s called power.  Another senator did all of this on a grand scale in the 1950’s and the masses said, “Go ahead and cooperate, you have nothing to fear.  What do you have to hide?”  And many innocent people did cooperate and the Senator ground them in the dust.

 I met a donor, one of the persons who wrote out a check to the Kenneth Copeland ministries to help him buy his new jet.  By the way, it was not the little old lady with the social security check whom television producers are frantically searching for right now.  He was an accomplished businessman.  I asked, “Why on earth did you do that?”

He said that the teaching of Kenneth Copeland had changed his life and his business and for years he wanted to thank him in some way.  When he heard that they wanted a jet, he decided to pay what he felt was an old debt and send him a $1,000.

 There is a former Catholic Priest out there who is teaching these ideas.  Fr. Michael has his own seminar on “the Secret of Wealth.”  I suppose he is okay for now.  But God help him if his doctrine works. 

 The government and the television networks are now the arbiters of religion in America.  They will determine which faiths can have marble conference tables and tapestries on the walls and which must wait another hundred years for approval to spend their money.   In the meantime, the Senators who decide these things, will slip out to Cedars, walk among the trees and look back at the vistas of Washington and whisper a prayer, “God, thank you for not making me like other men.  Like those sinners who have those television ministries.  And thank you for Cedars, a place to getaway with You.  It’s so peaceful here.”

 Ahhh but its nice to have God’s favor. And having the favor of the national media, knowing that they will attack any religion one chooses to single out, doesn’t hurt either.

165 Responses to People in Grassley Houses Shouldn’t Throw Stones

  1. teynnensweig says:

    Doug,

    thanks for pointing out the background here.

    This is precisely why we have separation of church and state. The state should never evaluate anything to do with religious interpretation at all nor come to any judgements about it.

    That is why laws giving the power over arbitrating when something is kosher food and when not to rabbis have been struck down, the state may not enforce one religious determination over another.

    Either we give religions their tax status, with simple rules for all to obey, or we just don’t do that at all.
    I have my doubts about Scientology, and don’t think they are a religion, but in our relativistic way today, it is correct that even they enjoy exempt status.

    Sen. Grassley should focus on real problems facing this country, or get out of the beltway.

  2. raleyb says:

    Nice article. I posted it on my Libertarian evangelical friends blog and he really enjoyed it.

    It is so easy for people to make a knee jerk judgements about topics like this.

    I remember when I was first baptized 7 years ago. I was really on fire in my faith. I had been reading the bible, listening to tapes, surfing the web for a variety of different preachers and ministries. Then I remember the conflict and sadness I had when my Sunday school teacher did a series on the prosperity teachers. He was coming down on Robert Schuler, Norman Vincent Peale, and several others that I can’t remember now. I thought to myself, these were some of the people who helped lead me to the Lord. Now my church is a non-denominational independent Christian megachurch, but they espouse the philosophy (in doctrine unity, in opinion liberty, and in all things love) We don’t practice speaking in tongues or other more charismatic preaching and worshiping, but the leadership has always allowed it in small groups, and Sunday school classes. In a church of 20,000 they have to control things a bit in the services. In all my years here I’ve only heard any of our pastors feel the need to call one preacher a wolf in sheeps clothing and he did this after much thought and study of the preachers doctrine. I remember the setting and he hesitated to even say the man’s name, but he did. They is a time and a place to defend the scriptures in season and out, but at that point I realized that we have to trust God for our personal discernment and we have to realize that we are all different but we are one body. The church is the body of Christ and does better to focus outwardly on the unchurched and the unsaved then to splinter and fight amongst ourselves.

    I can’t believe the hypocrisy in this investigation.

    I had never thought about it before but growing up Catholic made me think about Doug’s comments and a very ornamental church I’ve seen in my cousins wedding video. The church was in central america where and the altar and most of the sanctuary was actually gold.

    I heard a good quote recently:
    Money is an amplifier of the heart. It makes a bad person worse and a good person better.

  3. dmizzle says:

    Great Article! Thank you for finally speaking the truth about Grassley and his witch hunt.

    Check out http://www.joycemeyer.org/whatwedo it is the truth about what at least one of the 6 ministries does with its funds. I wonder why the media does not report on all the good being done through this .org who is one of the 6 being hounded by Grassley. Also, they have a full annual report on this site with audited financial statement showing the breakdown of how their money is spent. I am not sure what else Grassley could ask for out of this ministry.

    Thank!

  4. eissac52 says:

    I appreciate your clear view of the situation, and your lucid article. As someone who works quite closely with a “televangelist” ministry, it is encouraging to know that there are quite a few people in this country who refuse to be fooled by the smoke and mirrors of the media. This investigation presents an unsavory precedent for all churches, no matter what their core beliefs. It is more than just an attack on a few wealthy TV preachers. It is an attempt of some misguided government officials to infiltrate a realm of society that they have been denighed access to from the inception of this country. Trying to hide behind non-existant sweet old ladies who’ve had their social security checks snookered from them, is a poor cover for a blatent play for more power.
    This is a dangerous thing that is being attempted. The truth will be upheld, and every person of integrity whose character has been publicly besmirched will be vindicated. I pray, for the sake of the accusers, that it will be sooner rather than later.

  5. cholesommers says:

    Thank You for writing this article. We are all members of this Nation, regardless of domination and we all have are right to separation of church and state.

    Many of “Grassley’s six” ministries have dramatically effective my life for the better and they have encouraged me to strengthen my relationship with the lord. “Prosperity” isn’t the only thing taught by this ministries. They focus on your walk with the lord, how to truly love others and living your life for god.

  6. dreamvoyager3d says:

    I am thankful everyday.

  7. weadread says:

    It is really no wonder that there is outrage over genuine Word of Faith, Full Gospel, Pentecostal preaching and teaching. You know, the reality of the Gospel and its actual statements and claims are outrageous. Religion has so watered the Gospel for so many years that its proclaimed reality outrages. The fact that prosperity fruit is not only being born among its preachers but among its awakened hearers should be noted – as fruit. Unbelieving religion is so conditioned to the lack of results that it does not know how to recognize genuine fruit when it appears. Religious orientation and thinking can only suspect any evidence appearing from faith in God’s word alone. Oh well. The cream always comes to the top, they say. And I believe that will happen in this, and the investigators will become enlightened to deeper depths which they have been denied in their current shallow beliefs and understandings. As for the media – skim milk. God is willing and able to keep his own.

  8. bnone says:

    Think about this, we are no longer as free as we think we are. Do you remember when we had the right to agree to disagree? Remember when we could put our candidate’s sign in the yard of our home, and even though many folks were for another candidate, you knew your house was safe? That is no longer the case. I lived in a nice small town, and several folks who put signs in their yard has their homes vandalized, and the signs were also stolen. Remember when you could say most anything you wanted, and now that is no longer so either, even if you are joking. We have lost the humor we once had as a nation, but also much of our roots. Our roots are founded in the ability to remember who we are and where we came from We came from a society that persecuted those who were not like their own, and that is why the constitution was put into place. Now, we are seeing those tenets erode before our very eyes, and the media is pushing the buttons. Stand up for something right, or you will fall for anything!

    Who would want ANY one to come into their home, their car, their wallet or purse and just “look around”? I know of no such person, but that is exactly what Senator Grassley is proposing. He just wants to look around and see what he can find in the information he has requested. This information is protected for a reason, and if he really wanted it, he can get it through the system put in place that protects our rights.

    God is in control, but He expects His people to stand on His Word and be people that will stand up for what is right. Not that we have something to hide, but to do what is right. God bless these ministries who are full of integrity and respect the Lord enough to take the right stand!

  9. weadread says:

    Well said. Fact is – KCM did provide the financial data they requested, 291 pages, by the 12/6/07 deadline. They refuse to provide the requested donor lists and all names, etc. of any and every one who has ever spoken in their pulpit. That is the privacy question. The senator has already said they intend to publish what they get – that the public has a right to know.

    Also, on the financial track, KCM went to the IRS in Dallas and invited them, the lawful agency, to come in and audit them, that they would give them whatever they wanted. The IRS guards such information. I understand another ministry met the 12/6/07 deadline and others later. Several of these ministries have their audit statements (of established accounting firms) on their websites for viewing.

    The refusals aren’t about their use of funds. They’ve provided that part. Refusals are about the stated intention to spread around the names, addresses, etc. of donors and visiting ministers. People give with an expectation of privacy and desire to give in secret. The Presidential Libraries have declared this right, to protect their donor lists. When opposite parties/viewpoints come into office, they don’t want it known that they gave to the other side’s presidential library. Many times in American government, groups have asserted power over opposing sides. There is power being seized here, beyond the purview of the senate.

  10. 2edgedsword2 says:

    Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. Psalm 35:27

  11. goliathwhite says:

    … then hear from heaven and act. Judge between your servants, repaying the guilty by bringing down on his own head what he has done. Declare the innocent not guilty and so establish his innocence. 2 Chronicles 6:23

  12. grace4you2 says:

    See http://www.kcm.org/news/index.php?p=news_article&cid=10&eid=23912855
    for the actual letter trail from the senator and their responses, which do include disclosures.

  13. weadread says:

    Letter sent on May 2, 2008 to Finance Committee by a wide range of ministries:

    United States Congress
    U.S. Capitol
    Washington, DC 20002

    May 2, 2008

    Dear Senate Finance Committee Member:

    We write respectfully to let you know of our concerns about the Senate Finance Committee’s investigation into the finances of several churches, all of which share the same branch of evangelicalism, and all of which promote socially conservative public policy positions such as support for the traditional definition of marriage.

    While we recognize that some evangelical teachings and socially conservative policy positions are controversial, and that these churches have been the subject of sensational investigative journalism, we are nonetheless concerned that this would possibly justify an investigation outside the normal confines of the Internal Revenue Service and established administrative and judicial procedures.

    Congress passed the Church Audit Procedures Act in 1984 specifically to discourage politically driven audits of churches. The Act prevents the Internal Revenue Service from initiating an investigation into a church’s finances unless a “high level Treasury official” concludes that there is reasonable cause for such an investigation. The Act also protects a church under investigation from politically motivated leaks during the course of the examination.

    We are unaware of any finding by a high-level Treasury Department official that there is reasonable cause to open an investigation of any of these ministries.

    We are concerned that the Senate Finance Committee may be setting a dangerous precedent that may be difficult to reverse. For one thing, controversy will always be a part of religious teaching. And religious controversy is something the media will inevitably strive to exploit, since the media feed on controversy and have demonstrated a bias against evangelical Christians. The Committee’s reliance on media reports in targeting subjects for its investigation would therefore only seem to reinforce this unfortunate bias, however unwittingly.

    We cannot recall instances in the past where a congressional committee has targeted major ministries under threat of subpoena. The ministries have been asked to produce financial records and internal documents in what appears to be an exercise in disproving their alleged guilt.

    Congress has a legitimate role to play in oversight of our laws, including tax laws governing churches. And ministries have the obligation to be transparent in their financial accounting. But the targeting of specific ministries by a congressional committee would seem to intrude on the free exercise of religion guaranteed under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. We believe this is why churches are properly exempt from taxation in the first place — to prevent governments from using their power to tax as a way to limit the free exercise of religion.

    We respectfully ask that investigations into the finances of specific ministries be left with the Internal Revenue Service, overseen and approved by a Treasury Department official who has affirmed that there is reasonable cause for such an investigation, in accordance with the Church Audit Procedures Act.

    Signed,
    Paul Weyrich, Chairman, Coalitions for America
    Donald E. Wildmon, Founder and Chairman, American Family Association
    Ken Blackwell, Chairman, Coalition for a Conservative Majority
    William Murray, Chairman, Religious Freedom Coalition
    Rev. Bill Owens, President, Coalition of African American Pastors
    Victoria Cobb, President, The Family Foundation of Virginia
    Dr. Gary Cass, Chairman/CEO, Christian Anti-Defamation Commission
    Pastor Craig Polston, Kingdom Baptist Church, Fredericksburg, Virginia
    Pastor Bob Emrich, The Maine Jeremiah Project, Emmanuel Bible Baptist Church
    Dr. Carl Herbster, President, AdvanceUSA
    Anthony Verdugo, Christian Family Coalition
    Deal W. Hudson, Director, InsideCatholic.com
    Rev. Rick Scarborough, President, Vision America
    Star Parker, President, Coalition on Urban Renewal and Education
    Colin Hanna, President, Pennsylvania Pastors Network
    Dr. Danny Forshee, Pastor, First Baptist Church, Lavaca, Arkansas
    Sadie Fields, State Chairman, Georgia Christian Alliance
    Pastor Jack Knapp, Sandston, Virginia
    Larry Cirignano, Founder, CatholicVote
    James Martin, President, 60 Plus
    George Landrith, President, Frontiers of Freedom
    Mathew Staver, Dean and Professor of Law, Liberty University School of Law
    Rev. Rob Schenck, National Clergy Council

  14. rpsahc says:

    As a partner (supporter) of 3 of these six ministries, KCM since 1989 I can tell everyone that I am where I am today and who I am today because I’ve applied Kenneth Copeland’s teachings. I have prospered and am now debt free after growing up in the religious tradition that $$$ is evil, now I know the truth that the love of $$$ is evil and that $$$ itself is a tool. It meets your needs and allows you to sow into God’s Kingdom and help others.

    Want to know what they do with the $$$ they take in, become a partner and get a copy of their financial report. Did you know that KCM sows the top 10% to other ministries? They support all sorts of outreaches, prison ministries, crusades (Reinhard Bonnke) and missions worldwide. It costs a lot to give away the hundreds of thousands of BVOV magazines each month to anyone who contacts them. The more they receive the more they give out and the more they minister in meetings and television – all free to attend or watch!

    What does Senator Grassley charge to speak? Who pays for him to go? I’d like to turn the same standard and questions on his office and personal appearances.

    The house Grassley is building will not stand, but the truth and the word of God ministered by these ministries will.

  15. davidblack2 says:

    “What does Senator Grassley charge to speak? Who pays for him to go? I’d like to turn the same standard and questions on his office and personal appearances.”

    The difference being is that Sen. Grassley pays taxes on what he earns.

    KCM pays no taxes.

    Abolish the tax free exemption now!

  16. davidblack2 says:

    Please tell me why you wouldn’t be concerned that you are required to pay taxes but KCM is not, plus they are able to live more opulently than you BECAUSE they don’t pay taxes.

  17. enchiladada says:

    they pay personal taxes, dodo

  18. davidblack2 says:

    KCM is not an individual, and hence, doesn’t pay personal income tax. KCM is scamming the government by using its tax exempt status to rake in millions and for what? That’s right, so its ministers can live like rajahs on money donated (NOT EARNED) by evangelical lemmings like you.

  19. enchiladada says:

    prove it, bub

  20. davidblack2 says:

    Do you think this situation is unique? These televangelist scams have been running for years. Where have you been?

    When you’ve been blinded by the light, very little in the way of reality ever leaks through, does it?

  21. enchiladada says:

    aw, put a sock in it

  22. davidblack2 says:

    Sorry, but it needs to be said, because no one else here has the guts to.

  23. goliathwhite says:

    you are not the one to say it
    you lump all together; practices differ
    corrections are underway
    it’s an inside-out job
    not by crude insults from an outsider
    these are patently unhelpful
    you scorn more than abuses
    there’s no legitimate platform for this

  24. davidblack2 says:

    Funny, now you’ve morphed in a pseudo-Zen state

  25. goliathwhite says:

    I plead the blood of Jesus.

  26. davidblack2 says:

    Yeah, good luck with that.

  27. enchiladada says:

    when you develop a personality, let us know

  28. davidblack2 says:

    Having a personality doesn’t require absolute belief in the existence of mythical beings or giving money away to televangelist scam artists.

    It certainly doesn’t mean that I am required to show tolerance for people like you, either.

  29. enchiladada says:

    people in paper houses shouldn’t set fires

  30. davidblack2 says:

    A stitch in time saves nine.

  31. enchiladada says:

    burn, baby, burn

  32. jorgepagaul says:

    What is rong with ths guy ?

  33. enchiladada says:

    religious bigot

  34. Black David says:

    “religious bigot”

    (yawn)

  35. halcyon2 says:

    Typical Black – when trounced, waits a week or so and adds some blip, just to get the last word.

    Now folks, come back in about a week and catch Blackie’s latest attempt to save face …. but don’t expect anything of substance — but by now, you know not to.

    (Notice he removed “his face” from this forum … Didn’t want to identify with his own comments – understandable …) (Now,he’ll probably put it back, just to rebut the only way he knows how – tricks and trifles.) HaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaa

    Now, the Blackie blip:

  36. Black David says:

    Sure, I really feel “trounced” by fools too stupid to not see the folly of forking over their hard earned money to smiling swindlers holding up bibles and promising salvation on TV shows.

  37. Black David says:

    I changed my avatar because the flag of the IDF is more appropriate. I’m trying to reinforce my support for Zionism, since there seems to be so much anti-Semitism on the internet, even on blogs like this one.

  38. Black David says:

    Halcyon: since you are one to criticize comebacks, why is it that you don’t comment on those who can only respond to posts with bible verses?

    Talk about blips! Where’s the substance there? Do tell.

  39. halcyon2 says:

    sounds like you’ve taking in the poison without the kool-aid

  40. Black David says:

    Just as I thought … religious yahoos spout ancient gibberish and you cower before them because these words have such a dire effect on you. How quaint!

  41. halcyon2 says:

    Funny, now you’ve morphed in a pseudo-Zen state

    haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAA

    anti-semitism (yawn)

    Ron Paul won! Ron Paul won!!

    haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    whinerterian

  42. Black David says:

    “sounds like you’ve taking in the poison without the kool-aid”

    Ironic coming from someone who likely talks to a mythical supernatural being.

  43. christallign says:

    Why is it that some people in and of ‘the world’ feel the need to worry about poor misguided christians forking over their hard earned money to Bible holding salvation promising preachers? They always focus on money and miss everything else. Would you try to stop me if I say maxed out my credit card on the latest shoes or a frivolous holiday? Maybe I spend my hard earned measely cash on booze or cigarettes or drugs or partying or whoring or gluttony. There seem to be a lot of ‘concerned’ people when it comes to christians willingly – of their own free will – sowing financial seed into the Kingdom of the Living God and into the Body of Christ!!!!!!! I am not stupid I am not deluded I am not swindled or seduced by smiles and silver tongues. I am a vital, live member of the Body of Christ and I take my place in Christ Jesus at the right hand side of God the Father. The Blessed and Prosperity message isn’t just about money that’s just a little part of it – I am Blessed in life, in good health, in longevity, in my family, in my marriage, with my children, in my job, in my community, in my country, in my mind, heart, body and spirit, I am prosperous because God provides all that I could ever need or want because I seek not the world but Him and His Kingdom and ALL THESE THINGS ARE ADDED UNTO ME. I sow good seed into rich fertile soil, I sow not only financial seed into the good soild of ministries that preach and teach and pray the uncompromised Word of God, but I also sow good seed into people’s lives by letting them see Christ in Me in everthing I say and do and by my smiles and my love which come from God. I receice 100fold return at harvest time for all the seed I sow for every kind of seed I sow not just the financial kind. The World focuses on money because they are in Fear mode – like there is not enough, we are going to run out. The world needs to seed the father and operate in love mode – sharing mode, like there is infinite wealth of every king to be enjoyed by ALL. Are you a WHOSOEVER? Seek God now. Call Jesus to come into your heart right now and take over your life, ask the holy spirit of God to fill you right now! And read the Bible – then take it for real – believe it, walk it every day, speak it, breathe it, it is very REAL.
    You who fuss and fight and hate and judge are living in FEAR. That is why believing christians concern you so much.
    Never mind, this is meant to be. The Bible tells us this is to be expected in the Last Days before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ for his Body of Christ – then all those that worry about money so much, and fuss and fight and judge and hate, can have fun serving their lord satan for a while, until their time is up and the Lord Jesus and His saints come riding in to set up the Lord’s Kingdom on Earth!!!
    Oh I know you who do not know the Bible don’t know what I’m on about.
    But this is not for you its for the believers – don’t forget :

    “The thief (satan) cometh not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I (Jesus) am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
    (John 10:10)

    “Bless them which persecute you: bless and curse not.
    …Recompense to no man evil for evil.
    …avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for…vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
    Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
    (Romans 12:14-21)

    “Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
    Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for behold your reward is great in heaven:
    …Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.”
    (Luke 6:22-23, 28)

    Believers in Christ Jesus we are at the crunch time, the devil is pulling out all the stops, as the Body of Christ rises up in Glory more and more and comes together more and more and comes into their rightful powerful place in Him, satan gets angrier and more desperate as his time draws to a close – remember he is already a defeated foe, he is under our feet!!! Walk in God’s Word live and breathe and speak in complete FAITH – NOW is the time to walk in LOVE. The devil will be using any and every means to unsettle us, to unhinge us, to divide us, to bring us down into hate into fear into disharmony in factions and fighting and disagreeing and debating, into denying and defending into doubt and unbelief. This is his final ditch attempt. Do not respond to anything with judgement, with defensiveness, with fear. Do not be angry or bitter. Fully matured and grown christians ‘be still’, don’t give in to feelings and reactions – speak only God’s Word, and love all. Have compassion for the asleep and try to save as many as possible by your example. Not by defending yourself.

    “Salute one another with a holy kiss. The Churches of Christ salute you.
    Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause division and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned: and avoid them.
    For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ…and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
    …I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
    And the God of peace shall bruise satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. (Romans16:16-20)
    Amen.”

    Christians come together now, don’t divide, fuss and fight or judge. Be ONE in HIM.
    Raise your voices in ONE….COME TOGETHER IN ONE ACCORD AND SPEAK GOD’s WORD AS ONE. OUT LOUD!!! God’s Blessings upon all those that preach and minister the Word of God in these times amid harsh tongues and minds and hard hearts, God protect them and keep them in all their ways as they go about doing your will God for the Body of Christ. Love and blessings to the Copelands, and to all like them. In Christ Jesus. Amen.

    Love
    Elizabeth

  44. Black David says:

    I’m sorry, did anyone ask for a sermonette, sweetie?

  45. Black David says:

    Uh, Elizabeth, when’s the part where you hold the snakes and speak in tongues?

  46. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    You really go all out defending the tyrant Grassley or is your real motive just persecuting Christians, especially Word-of-Faith Christians?

    Are you a realative of Grassley’s? …maybe his momma?

  47. prosperity7777 says:

    christallign

    Great post.

  48. Black David says:

    I thought you were more paranoid about illegal aliens.

    Now it’s back to Grassley?

    “Are you a realative of Grassley’s? …maybe his momma?”

    Not a very nice comment from an alleged evangelical Christian, is it? Where’s the love there? No problem, I already know that many people who call themselves evangelical Christians are the biggest phonies on the planet.

    Your prejudice against “the least of these” exposes you for the fraud you are.

  49. prosperity7777 says:

    GBlack David,

    You must be a Democrat. They like labels and calling people names. The only reason you talk about fear is because you think everybody is as full of fear as you are.

    …you poor child.

  50. Black David says:

    Sorry, but I’m a card carrying Republican and always have been, having voted for Richard Nixon the first time I was eligible in 1968.

    Exactly what fear am I showing? If anything, I show contempt, especially for people that cannot guide their won destinies and hang on to superstition and mythology.

  51. Black David says:

    CORRECTION: guide their own destinies

  52. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Pride is a terrible thing because it often blinds a person to the fact that someone else might know something they don’t, which in you case is abundantly clear. It makes learning new things a real chore for you, particularly if you can’t validate the new information with your five senses.

  53. Black David says:

    At 62, I’ve learned pretty much what I need to know to forge on until death, a transition I do not fear because it’s a natural part of life. no one escapes it.

    The promise of an afterlife is a trick to fool the gullible and weak of mind to be good little robots while they are living.

  54. prosperity7777 says:

    You have been afraid of death all of your life, and you should be, considering your relationship with your Heavenly Father.

    Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

  55. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David

    1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    Romans 10:8-10
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

    …the good David

  56. Black David says:

    Without your book of folk tales, you people really have nothing to say, do you?

    I had a relationship with my flesh and blood father, a tough old codger who, along with his brothers, escaped Europe after Kristallnacht in 1938. He helped to raise me and teach me what I needed to do in life to prosper and be self-sufficient.

  57. prosperity7777 says:

    He did you a tremendous disservice if that is all he taught you. He failed to explain to you that there is a difference between your body of flesh and your spiritual being which is housed in your flesh. Once your spiritual being departs, your flesh will be dead and will begin to decay. This decay will continue until it is reduced to its basic elements, which comprise the dust of the earth. Conversely, your spirit will live forever in one of two places, either in Heaven with God, or the lake of fire to burn forever along with the devil, his fallen angels/demons and all unbelievers who died in their sin.

    Neither your earthly father or you being an obtuse old guy will save you, but Jesus can.

    Jesus is your answer.

  58. Black David says:

    “Conversely, your spirit will live forever in one of two places, either in Heaven with God, or the lake of fire to burn forever along with the devil, his fallen angels/demons and all unbelievers who died in their sin.”

    Again, if you can provide hard physical evidence of those places you speak of, please, supply them.

    Quoting a book of folk tales won’t count. I require much more than that.

  59. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    …and again,

    I have God’s Word on it.

    You will find out soon enough.

    …the good David

  60. Black David says:

    Sure, whatever you say, sparky.

  61. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    You are right. It is whatever I say because I say the truth.

    …the good David

  62. […] Top Posts Kenneth Copeland’s JetCopeland’s Crime? He Trusts His FamilyPeople in Grassley Houses Shouldn’t Throw Stones […]

  63. joseph1imp says:

    Christalign/Elizebeth,
    Thank you for that great post.
    To the Unbelievers,
    You shall soon have all the physical evidance you need.
    “For Every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord”

  64. g9momma says:

    To Kenneth Copeland (and the other five ministries under fire):

    You are the few that truely show the face of love – you speak in love and walk in love regardless of the situation at hand. You teach worldwide how to better one’s self through God’s uncompromising word. I pray for you all. I am confident that you are doing exactly what our Heavenly Father has asked and so many of millions of people have had their lives changed because of your boldness and courage to speak the principals that you have committed your lives to long before you had material wealth. I love you and thank God for you.

    To fellow christians:

    All of the things that are surfacing are all spoken about from the beginning to the end of the bible. Isn’t it interesting to see the very things that were foretold comming to life right from the bible? It is just amazing to see. The persecution, the earthquakes, the fires, and all the natural disasters…all foretold two thousand years ago! WOW! No matter what is or has been or will be done against God’s people ~ it was all mentioned in the bible. So have courage and be of good cheer…we are the chosen generation that was hand picked to witness these very events. I encourage you to maintain your reading in the bible, ALWAYS walk in love…especially to those who can only depend on their five senses, they do not know any better and God’s way’s are folly to those who do not know Him. They do not know that God loves them too. They do not believe in heaven or hell, just the here and now. Do not waste your time in allowing arguments to continue with people that are firm and fixed on what is concrete and touchable. God loves the ignorant equally with the ones that are educated. So pray for the ones that do not understand. Love the ones that are causing such a ruckus. Don’t be angery – don’t allow yourselves to loose focus ~ for the time is near. People that do not understand HATE us. But that’s alright. They just need a better understanding of love. So – lets show them just that. We (us christians) are here to display the love of Jesus. Jesus didn’t argue or debate. So why should we. The truth of God is the same yesterday today and forever. In this generation – people of the ‘world’ are so detached from God and His ways of prosperity. The world thinks prosperity is JUST MONEY. We that believe know better. Prosperity covers a vast and much larger scale – money is just a small fraction of it. We know better. It is a mystery to those who believe as to ‘why’ us ‘bible beaters’ and ‘prosperity preachers’ are financially blessed. Even the word ‘blessed’ has been reduced to a simple statement after a sneeze. Once again – we know better. So, please continue to love the ones that do not understand – we are silly to them and they cannot phathom how we prosper so much because they do not know our God, in their eyes we MUST be doing something wrong -eh? LOL ~ yet we can smirk inside and still smile because we are blessed in KNOWING GOD and all of His wonders. 🙂

    Smile & wave boys…just smile and wave🙂

    To those that do not understand:

    You believe in wind, yet you cannot actually see the wind – but it’s effects are there.

    You get this feeling of enfatuation when you fall in love – but you cannot taste – physically see or touch with your hand “actual” love. But once you find that man/woman you want to marry…you just know.

    The law of gravity is ever present. However – it is not a tangible thing. But the effects of it is present.

    The law of lift (for the purposes of aviation) – it’s there…once again you cannot see it or touch it or smell it or actually hear it. Yet we fly all sorts of aircraft around the world and into outter space.

    There was a time people believed the world was flat. That there was no possiblity of anything else, yet here we are hundreds of years later, more educated and with a better understanding.

    God is here and very real.
    Look at the condition of this Earth and everything that is going on within it.
    Then before you are so quick to judge, pick up the bible and read some of it. It’s amazing to see that things that were written two thousand years ago are comming to life before our eyes. There is no way that one can believe the natural events are just “per chance” or “coincedence”. Science explains and hypothosises – but still cannot discredit the fact that these events happening were foretold two thousand years ago. Challenge the bible, it is all true. God loves you who ever you are – whether you believe in Him or not, whether your poor or rich.

    Courage and Godspeed!
    g9momma

  65. Black David says:

    “You shall soon have all the physical evidance (sic) you need.”

    Maybe you can ask Jesus to teach you to spell sixth grade vocabulary words in the meantime.

  66. joseph1imp says:

    LOL I noticed that after I posted it, oh well I hope you find peace and maybe an editing job🙂

  67. prosperity7777 says:

    Hello joseph1imp,

    I think Black David has a real future in teaching people how to win friends and influence enemies.

    …the good David

  68. g9momma says:

    prosperity7777 & joseph1imp … lets not forget DB’s future in worms…and fertalizing too🙂

    He sure must like flowers or something. That’s it…he’s a flower child!
    (ha-ha) But good at heart I’m sure.

    I’m sorry for that, it was a bit funny. But these blogs have been so serious – unfortunately. DB seems to be a bitter person couped up in a lil’condo in NY. We just gotta love him for his persistance. And that he has alot of time on his hands too😉

    I admit I admire his determination for justice…just think how helpful he would be if he used the same determination with drug trafficing, rapists and murders. That should clean up the country – a bit anyway🙂

  69. Black David says:

    If you had passed a basic physics course, you’d know that gravity is caused by the motion of this planet and can be easily and scientifically measured.

    The emotion of love is traced to chemical changes in the certain parts of the brain. This too has been scientifically proven.

    If you are trying to get me to deny some intelligent design in the universe, you can stop right there.

    I can acknowledge that it exists, but I will not, for any reason, bow before it in supplication or worship.

    I bow before nothing, especially a mythical supernatural being our ancestors created for the essential purpose of behavior control. Making people fearful of a “supreme being” and a negative “afterlife” (hell) is just a ploy toward that end. The enticement of “heaven” as a reward for good behavior is no different than giving a kid a dollar for doing their chores.

    I possess sufficient intelligence to motivate myself to do what’s right. I don’t need superstitions written a book of folk tales to guide my behavior or thinking.

  70. g9momma says:

    BD ~

    Heck buddy…I’m not trying to get you to do anything at all. In your eyes you are a happy fellow. Why would I dare try to improve upon perfection?
    You’re perfectly happy…that’s a good thing.

    Yes, I’m sure that you are a physics grad as well as an editing expert, oh and a law professor too. You are apparently text book educated and with many college/university degrees to back it (I’m sure). I will not argue you in that regards. But once again, you have escaped the obvious. So instead of arguing the issue with you, which is obviously a great enjoyment to you (arguing)

    – Are you a lawyer? …if not you should have been – and you would have been great at it.

    So I will say this to you.
    I love you even though I don’t know you.
    I pray for you ~ even in your ignorance of spirital subjects. I realize that you cannot believe a thing without having material evidence. So there is really no sense in trying to explain something that is beyond your comprehension.

    You continously state you are Jewish. (AND???)
    I don’t know whether to cry for you or laugh at your comments and statements. You make a mockery of yourself world wide and obviously pleased in doing so. You give a bad name to Jewish people…please stop stating you are Jewish. I love the Jewish people so very much, Jesus was Jewish and I regard Jews very highly, and you are the first Jew I would DISregard given your obvious contempt for the same creator that gave you the very breath that you use to curse Him with.

    Regardless, the best way to handel ‘your’ type of personality is to pray. Realistically I can’t do a thing for you, other than amaze you with my blogs, and capture your attention, since you have nothing better to do than pass your ridiculous silly statements/blogs against people you neither know, understand or obviously care about.

    All the tithes (and offerings) sent to these ministries have been already taxed…all six ministries have complied to requests with the exception of offering specific personal names ect. Doctors, psyciatrists, and lawyers can appreciate the right to privacy too. Yet simple laws that dictate the right to privacy escapes you. Please feel free to add to your blog ALL of your personal financial statements over the past decade, and every reciept of every single purchase and transaction. Get all this together. If Grassley actually accomplishes (and he won’t) what he is out to do…it will be an advantage that you have this information ready to offer, because it will be stripping your rights just like us silly christians that as you say believe in a mythical god. Believe in God or not…all personal rights will be stripped, including yours. This event will set a precedent for the future of all citizens of this great country. OH wait! You have nothing to hide and I just must be paranoid. Yea right. For a brief moment I forgot that little nugget. I’m must be out side my mind to GIVE MY OWN MONEY FREELY to whomever I want and expect a hundred fold (it’s is my money – I do have the right to do whatever I want with my money – AND I DID PAY TAXES ON IT) . Really ~ what do you care? It’s not YOUR money, and it’s not impinging on your rights of freedom or beliefs. Really – why do you care? You have nothing at all to do with it. I love that KCM and other ministers are rich…they should be.

    You think you have all the answers, indeed when all these mythical stories from the bible come full circle – I wonder where you will be (besides worm food of course) if you are not already dead. Unfortunate for you, there will be no one to argue with anymore – pitty😦

  71. Black David says:

    “You give a bad name to Jewish people…please stop stating you are Jewish.”

    I guess to all you religious yahoos living in the backwater ‘burgs of America, all Jews should act and behave like they’re right out of Fiddler on the Roof, right?

    Sorry, we don’t all wear funny beards, yarmulkes, and say “oy vey,” you dolt.

    Just remember, sparky, the posters of this blog may be stacked against me opinion-wise, but there are plenty of free thinkers (some of them Jewish) in this world who don’t buy into your salvation quackery and who know scams when they see them.

    The sad thing is that you yahoos hand over your money to salvation quacks like Copeland and Hinn and you get NOTHING in return. That’s the biggest laugh of them all. You sucker for that mythical carrot at the end of a much bigger mythical stick, when all the while you could achieve the same happiness if weren’t so intellectually lazy and pathetic.

    Hucksters like Copeland an Hinn prey on the weak of mind like you to keep them in power and rolling in dough while you are too clueless to realize it.

  72. g9momma says:

    LOL!
    Ya think you can come up with something new BD? How many times are you going to repeat yourself? Really…do you just cut and paste? Because it does seem like it. Actually, kool-aide sounds pretty good at this point, I’m waiting for you to bring that up again…haha!

    I am very sure that many Jewish people don’t wear yarmulkes and say “oy vey”…again…some new material? Fiddler on the roof…nice movie – I’ve seen it, a bit past this generation though, new material? Perhaps proof? What proof do you have that all of us yahoo’s haven’t gotten anything out of giving? Please provide your proof sir? Oh wait…you don’t have that proof. I have recieved several cars and the very computer from which I reply to you today (not to worry, I’m not a minister, pastor, or even a televangelistic icon just a child of the LIVING GOD) – not to mention the many financial increases. (To God be the glory) I am only one grain in a huge sand box of people who have been more than blessed and had their lives improved and increased by Godly biblical principals taught by the very same ministries you sling mud at.

    Once again, please stop mentioning yourself or including yourself as one of God’s chosen ones. Instead, perhaps of middle eastern desent would better suit you.

    If that’s the best you got…it is even more disappointing than your repetitive rants. No body is trying to sell you anything…actually it is given freely🙂 and each person’s individual choice to take or leave.

  73. g9momma says:

    No proof of all the yahoo’s in the world and their increase due to their giving.

    No degrees (bummer, I kind of thought you would’ve listed them for us).

    Seems like alot of cut & paste…hot air…oh and we can’t forget the worms.

  74. g9momma says:

    No proof of the ministries even breaking the law.
    All with a clean bill of health (so to speak) from the IRS.

    Care to take a different angle?
    Please leave the snakes out of it.
    The snakes didn’t do anything to you.

  75. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Why do you spend so much time attacking people like Kenneth and the people on this blog, since all of us support Israel and love the Jews. Heck, I doubt most of us mind paying taxes so the U.S. to help Israel with military equipment and money? So, especially since you don’t give money to Kenneth, wouldn’t your time be better spent attacking you enemies than your friends?

    …the good David

  76. Black David says:

    Repetitive rants? How about all these nut jobs quoting scriptural gibberish at every opportunity? Of course you hypocritically ignore *that.*

    “Once again, please stop mentioning yourself or including yourself as one of God’s chosen ones. Instead, perhaps of middle eastern desent would better suit you.”

    How culturally ignorant of you, believing that all Jews come from Israel or the Middle East.

    My parents were from Austria. They are Ashkenazim. By the way, I don’t consider myself a “chosen one” and never have.

    By the way, when you write the plural form of yahoo, you don’t need an apostrophe. An apostrophe indicates possession.

    “I have recieved several cars and the very computer from which I reply to you today (not to worry, I’m not a minister, pastor, or even a televangelistic icon just a child of the LIVING GOD)”

    So how much does this God charge for a car and a computer these days? Does he accept major credit cards?

    Funny, I owned cars and computers and I’ve never declared loyalty to any deity. How about that!

  77. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Talk about ranting…

    Are we having a little trouble staying on point.

    God says I am one of His chosen. You say I am not. Hmmm, I wonder who I should listen to. Ah, you lose. God is smarter that you.

    You should go learn the history of the Jews so you can quit embarrassing yourself.

    You sound like a frustrated English professor. Heeere lettt mme helllp Give yall sometin ta dooo.

    Isn’t there some Muslim message board that you need to share your sweetness with? Do you remember them? They are the guys who really don’t like you. lol

    …the good David

  78. g9momma says:

    Thanks for editing for me BD…saves me a step – and at the same time it keeps you on your toes. I know you are paying attention, maybe not understanding, but paying attention.

    Silly little BD🙂

    All Jews ‘origionally’ came from the middle east area. What, not a history buff, but a professional editor…interesting. (by the way…I’m still waiting to see all your degrees – and did you post your financial statements yet?) The Jewish people have been scattered far and wide for centuries, especially since Iseral was taken over by Rome until they reestablished thier country in 1948. Since then Jewish people have been returning to their homeland – as foretold IN THE BIBLE (repeatedly).

    As for the cars and computer – GOD didn’t charge ME for a computer or for the cars…your thinking is so limited – which is expected at this point. At least in that – you are consistant.

    Tithing is more like a spiritual checking account giving 10% and the individual ‘chooses’ the intrest (30,60,90, or 100 fold). One spends time in prayer, God direct them where to give, and as promised – it is given back to you good measure – pressed down – and running over will it be given back to you. Naming your desires is just how it is done. By words and reading in the bible to find out what is leagally yours by inheiritance & covenant right. I understand this is uncomprehensable to you who can ONLY believe in your five senses and does not know a thing about the contents of the bible itself. The chances of you actually believing millions of christians around the world is very small since you believe we are all insane (psych degree?) – regardless of the validity. You must be in absolute bliss BD.

    Well, I’ve enjoyed our little intrigues..but in reality – you do not – and will not likely understand regardless of so many people trying to explain in the simplest of terms. In short…you enjoy the fight…I suppose that is what keeps you going at this stage of your life. (?)

    I hope for the best for you and even if you don’t want me to pray for you – you can take it to the bank that I will be, as is the entire list of people that reads your silly rants…agreeing to disagree apparently is the final outcome.

  79. Black David says:

    Really, hillbillies are repulsive enough in their manner of speech and behavior, but when they have to go out of their way to fulfill the most negative stereotype, that’s where I draw the line.

    All I can say to you at this point, Jethro, is to simply ‘drop dead,’ as we in New York like to say on occasion to other people

  80. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    That’s what you remind me of. …a Jewish Hillbillie.

    lol

    the good David

  81. Black David says:

    No hillbillies live in New York City, Jethro.

    The singular form is spelled “hillbilly”

    So, you quit school when, sixth grade?

    For me, it’s about exposing the fraud that is organized religion and how it scams people out of their money in exchange for some farcical hope of perpetual existence in some mythical places.

    It’s about exposing blind followers like you that haven’t the intellect to lead your lives by your own thinking. You’re no different from adherents to any other radical ideology. You condemn non-believers and are assured by your own hubris.

  82. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    I don’t condemn unbelievers. All people are born unbelievers under the curse of sin and death. They have the same judgment resting on them as the devil has. Jesus came to reverse the curse. All you have to do to be saved is to confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead.

    Romans 10:8-10
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    …or in the alternative, you can end up in the lake of fire which burns forever. It is a real no brainer decision and a real win-win for you.

    …the good Saint David, King of the King, Lord of the Lord, the very righteousness of God Almighty in Christ Jesus, blessed going in and blessed coming out. Whew, did God make me super cool or what?

  83. joseph1imp says:

    Yes Prosperity He did make us supercool!🙂

    Point of fact: Scientific law states energy can be niether ceated nor destroyed only converted. There is chemical electrical energy thoughout my body and aside from anything else my patterns will not simply dissapate after I die. The matter that comprises my body will decompose but my spirit will continue.

    Before I was born again I was too stupid to be afraid of death now that I am I have been I have no resean to ANYTHING! For if God is With me who can stand against me? Praise Jesus!

  84. joseph1imp says:

    Correction: I have no reason to fear anything.

    Including bad spelling!

  85. joseph1imp says:

    List as one of David Blacks interests is: “listening to the voices in my head berating each other”, And HE calls US crazy!!!!

  86. Black David says:

    That’s a joke that only a Jew from New York or a fan of Woody Allen or Larry David could appreciate.

    It doesn’t translate very well to the cornpone folks of the so-called “heartland.”

    So you visited my blog, Joseph. Did you post a reply to any of my entries?

  87. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Assuming you aren’t from Mars of the local zoo, and these are big assumptions, would you please tell us where you are from?

    …so when are you sending me money so I can buy a car from you?

    …the good David

  88. Black David says:

    if you could read, you’d already know where I live.

    Jesus can sell you a car really cheap, as there’s blood stains on the upholstery and the steering wheel..

  89. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David

    I want to to be the beneficiary of this great deal. After all, you were the architect.

    …but you need to let the blood of Jesus cleanse you of sin or start thinking about the lake of fire that burns forever.

    David

    P.S. This is a test. Can you find the misspelled word in this post? You will never live it down if you mess this up.

  90. Black David says:

    It should be ” I want, too, to be the …”

    Now you and Jesus can go @#$% off.

  91. Black David says:

    By the way, prosperity, that was a terribly awkward way to write that, but for a hillbilly with a substandard public school education, it’s probably the best you can do.

  92. g9momma says:

    …and BD’s mud slinging continues (lol) 🙂

    Now ~ now…are you getting upset BD?
    No need to sware. Goodness gracious.

    Prosperity7777 ~ looks like you hit a soft spot here.

  93. Black David says:

    Awww, look at the two butt buddies for Christ kanoodling on line. Isn’t it touching?

  94. prosperity7777 says:

    Actually, I write very well as do other people here.

    You need to go rinse our mouth out with stool cleaner.

    …the good David

  95. g9momma says:

    ROFL!!!

    “tic-tack sir”

    See, he can’t prove us wrong Prosperity7777! You did hit a soft spot!
    Good for you buddy! I like you prosperity7777 ~ and I do think you are a good writer too – but I think you and I can both agree we are not butt buddies…haha!

    All he can do make snotty comments & show his bad manors.
    STILL NO PROOF -OR- DEGREES…I don’t think he has his financial records ready yet either.

    BD ~ How very unbecoming of a 62 year old – especially from a 6th grade teacher.

    What a disappointment – even for a New Yorker.
    Oh, and I have nothing against people from New York…haha.
    New York has some of the finest ministries – I think Creflo Dollar has a church there.

  96. prosperity7777 says:

    g9momma,

    I like you too.

    It is my understanding that Creflo does have a Church in NY.

    Here is a Faith Forum you may like. My Pastor fried in Ireland owns it. His name is Mike and he is a very nice fellow. Here is the link.

    http://faithforum.eu/index.php

    Do you think that Black David is a Muslim on a mission here? …or maybe he is Grassley’s momma? …or maybe he is Old Ole? Ole has a history of being hostile with people.

    …the good David

  97. g9momma says:

    I checked out the faith forum…looked pretty cool! Thanks!

    As for David Black…I don’t think he is a muslim…they usually know their history better. I once had a friend that I used to work with that was muslim…she was such a delight to be around. We both beilieved differently but got along just fine. I think BD just is bitter, for what reason? I do not know. He claims to be a ‘happy’ person, yet his blog and every statement I’ve read seems like he seriously needs prayer. I’ve been praying for him. Oh I’m sure I’ll be hearing from our favorit editor about it, but that is alright. All this critisim we have been warned about in our little mythical book (ha-ha). So as it suggests, I take good cheer regarding the petty little put downs (and corrections). But at least I have been able to meet you and some other good people at this site.

  98. prosperity7777 says:

    g9momma,

    That is too funny that the Muslim had better manners than Black David.

    Muslim or not, I believe he is not what he pretends to be.

    …the good David

  99. g9momma says:

    Prosperity777 –

    Almost all muslim’s I know – KNOW WORLD HISTORY.
    As we know, BD is great at spelling and editing…but world history is not his strong suit by a long shot!

    He can’t be muslim…ignorant – yes, bitter – absolutely, difficuld – without a doubt, misinformed – OH YEA! But the chances of him being muslim in my opinion are slim.

  100. Black David says:

    What don’t I know about world history?

    Still harping on that origin of Jews? Well, if you want to get really technical and persnickety, then the origin of ALL people, even redneck hillbilly crackers like you is central Africa about 2 million years ago.

    But if you are some silly fool who believes in magical gardens with snakes and apples, then you aren’t going to get it anyway.

  101. prosperity7777 says:

    g9momma

    Are you are saying is that Muslims are kinder, brighter and better educated than Black David?

    Hmmmmmm… You know, you’re right!

  102. Black David says:

    hey, yo momma, is this how your buddy Jesus would like you to act?

    You just can’t control yourself, can you?

    You are just like everyone else. Why pretend to be holier than thou?

  103. Black David says:

    “Are you are saying is that Muslims are kinder, brighter and better educated than Black David?”

    Great, a bunch of Muslim lovers! Guess what, Muslims want to see you dead if you don’t accept Allah. What do you think of that?

  104. prosperity7777 says:

    TEST

  105. Black David says:

    If you don’t think that homo sapiens didn’t evolve from some lower order of mammal then you are an idiot, since scientific evidence proves it.

    If you think homo sapiens began in some mythical garden with snakes ands apples guided by a mythical being, then you are an even greater idiot.

    I can’t take for granted that readers like you holy roller dupes can understand anything tangible, since you can’t spell worth a damn and since you believe in fairy tale nonsense.

  106. Black David says:

    CORRECTION: If you think homo sapiens didn’t evolve from some lower species … then you are an idiot.

  107. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    I knew it.

    I am not an idiot but you obviously believe your daddy was a monkey’s uncle and what does that make your momma in your mind. Just how many bananas did you eat while growing up?

    Of course the thought of you being descended from a lower form of primate would explain much about you.

    So the question is, does Black David’s existence make a case for evolution? Not a chance, even though it is a tempting thought. LOL

    …the good David

  108. Black David says:

    It’s like the worm food scenario, your feeble and stunted mind can’t handle anything that’s not explicitly stated in your book of fairy tales.

    So what if man evolved from a lower form of mammal? How is that affecting my life today? It’s not, so I accept it because science provides hard evidence.

    Schmucks like you can’t because your book of fairy tales has a children’s story about a magic garden with a snake and an apple tree..

  109. Black David says:

    Don’t take my word on it, read any science book on the subject.

  110. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Let;s see if we can help you:

    What’s the difference between creation and evolution?
    This is the first of a short Creation Tips four-part course titled Creationology for beginners. The whole four lessons should take you only about 15 minutes to read, but will give you an idea of some main points in the creation-evolution debate. The four lessons have been adapted from other articles on the Creation Tips website, so after you have finished the course you may find the articles from which these were taken elsewhere on the Creation Tips site.

    Now let’s start …

    What do creationists and creationologists believe?
    Creationists, creationologists, and creation scientists all believe that the universe, life, and all the basic matter these consist of were created by God. All three can actually be called creationists.

    A creation scientist is a creationist who is a scientist, and a creationologist is a creationist “who studies creation or has a strong interest in it.” A young Christian child may be a creationist, as is someone who simply believes in creation but doesn’t take an active interest in it. A creationologist takes an active, strong interest in it, and also in why evolution fails as an explanation of origins. (The suffix “-logy” means “a subject of study or interest” — as in theology, archaeology, zoology, biology. So creationology is “the study of God’s creation.”

    Most creationists and creationologists today are either conservative Christians or orthodox Jews who believe that the Bible (Christian), or the Torah (Jewish), is accurate in its description of God’s creation of the world and of life. They therefore believe the Bible when it says that the world, the stars, planets, and life were created over a short time (six ordinary 24-hour days). They also believe the Bible when it says that the first living things were created fully formed (that means the chicken was created before the egg: Genesis 1:20-22).

    Creationologists (including creation scientists) believe that most fossils are the result of the worldwide flood described in the book of Genesis, and that the earth’s surface, mountains, and terrain we see today were basically shaped by that flood.

    What do evolutionists believe?
    Evolution science is the idea that the universe and life have formed by a process of evolution (simple things developed into complex things) over a long time: millions or billions of years. Those who believe this are called evolutionists.

    Evolutionists do not know how the first matter appeared, or how life evolved from non-life. But they believe that a “big bang” billions of years ago started the process that formed all the stars, planets, and life. They believe that simple forms of life evolved into highly complex types of creatures such as humans, even though science has never clearly supported this. They are constantly looking for “missing links,” which supposedly are creatures that will prove that one type of organism turned into a completely different type.

    Unlike evolutionists, creationists are not searching for “missing links” to show that fish turned into amphibians, or that reptiles evolved into birds, or that apes and humans evolved from a “common ancestor,” and so on. This is because creationologists and creation scientists believe that the scientific facts already fit the creationist idea. (That is, major types of creatures were created much in the form they are today, and major organs such as arms, legs, mouths, hearing organs, were present and fully functional from their first appearance on earth; they did not gradually develop.)

    In summary:

    Creationists believe that God created the universe as described in the Bible’s book of Genesis. The world was created in six ordinary days. Animals and plants were created pretty much in the form we find them today. Most fossils formed rapidly as a result of a worldwide flood.

    Evolutionists believe that the universe formed from a “big bang” billions of years ago. Life formed from non-life. From the first simple life-form(s), every other living thing on earth has evolved. Evolutionists do not believe there was a worldwide flood; they believe that fossils formed slowly from local events.

    ___________

    Three fatal flaws in evolution.
    Evolution is full of unsolved problems. Evolutionary scientists always seem to be on the brink of making major breakthroughs in evolution, but never quite get there.

    Here are three easy-to-remember fatal problems with evolution. To be honest, we believe they show that evolution could never have started. So trying to find missing links and other proofs of evolution is really wasting time unless these three problems are overcome. Unless evolutionists solve them, creation will remain the only explanation supported by currently known facts.

    Fatal problem No. 1

    There is no scientific law that allows something to evolve from nothing.

    If there was nothing in the universe to begin with, obviously nothing would happen to cause anything to appear. Our observations and common sense show that without a creator you won’t get anything, let alone everything. Evolution fails completely on this count in the areas of science, common sense, and observable fact.

    Fatal problem No. 2
    No scientific law can account for non-living things’ coming to life. The dirt and rocks in your garden don’t turn into trees and flowers. Plants come from seeds, cuttings, or grafts from other trees and flowers. Life simply does not arise from things that have never had life in them.

    Evolutionary textbooks teach that at some time in the distant past, life arose from non-living substances. But biology has found no law to support this idea, and much against it. The invariable observation is that only living things give rise to other living things. Life could not begin if God and miracles took no part! Evolution fails to give a credible explanation for how life could begin.

    Fatal problem No. 3
    There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind.

    Fish don’t turn into amphibians, for instance, because fish don’t have genes to amphibians.

    The theory of evolution teaches that simple life-forms evolved into highly complex life-forms, such as fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. There is no natural law known that could allow this to happen. The best that evolutionists can come up with to try to explain how this might have happened is to suggest that it happened by mutations and natural selection.

    But mutations overwhelmingly destroy genetic information, and produce creatures more handicapped than the parents. And natural selection simply weeds out unfit creatures. Natural selection may explain why light-colored moths in England decreased and dark moths proliferated (because during the industrial revolution the light moths on dark tree trunks were more easily seen and eaten by birds), but it cannot show how moths could turn into effective, totally different, non-moth creatures. Neither mutations nor natural selection explains how new genetic information could get into an organism’s genetic code to produce a totally different kind of creature.

    All the evidence is on the side of the Christian who believes the Bible’s account of creation — that in the beginning God created the world and all the major types of creatures to reproduce “after their kind”.

    In summary:

    There is no scientific law that allows something to evolve from nothing.
    No scientific law has ever shown that life can arise from non-life.
    There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind.
    ___________________

    Is there evidence for creation that is better than evidence for evolution?
    One of the biggest differences between evolutionists and creationists is the way in which each group believes that living things appeared on earth.

    Evolutionists claim that all living things have come from one or a few original living organisms (they call it the “common ancestor”). They believe that the first living things on earth were simple life-forms that eventually evolved into very complex life-forms such as humans. Their idea is that all life on earth is like a “chain” throughout time linking simple organisms of the past to complex organisms of today. Evolutionists believe that:

    single-celled organisms evolved into multicelled organisms
    which eventually evolved into fish
    which evolved into amphibians
    which evolved into reptiles
    which evolved into birds and mammals
    which evolved into humans.
    The difficulty with this evolutionary “chain” is that important links between all the major groups are missing. Evolutionists are searching for these “missing links” to try to prove their theory, and have been looking since at least the time of Charles Darwin in the mid-1800s.

    Creation difference
    Creationists, however, believe that God created all the major types of living things separately in the beginning.

    fish were created as fish
    amphibians were created as amphibians
    reptiles were created as reptiles
    birds were created as birds
    mammals were created as mammals
    humans were created as humans right from the beginning.
    Creationists do not believe that creatures in these or other major groups evolved at all. They say the reason evolutionists can’t find the missing links between these major groups is because the links don’t exist.

    So, a good evidence for creation would be to show that life-forms that do not have antecedents appeared on earth.

    The fossil record reveals something that clearly supports this creation idea but is disturbing to the evolution idea. It shows that complex animals that are fossilized in the early rock layers of earth appeared quite suddenly.

    Complex organs appear abruptly
    For example, in the Cambrian rocks we find lamp shells, moss animals, worms, trilobites, and shrimp. These creatures have complex organs: intestines, stomachs, bristles, spines, and appendages. They have eyes and feelers, which indicates that they possessed a good nervous system. They have gills, which shows that they extracted oxygen from the water and had complex blood circulation systems. There is nothing primitive or simple about these Cambrian creatures!

    Now the big question is: Where are the ancestors of these Cambrian fossils? Where are the organisms with partially formed intestines, stomachs, bristles, spines, appendages, eyes, feelers, and gills? Evolutionists have never been able to produce them. They appeared suddenly, fully formed.

    Dr. Arlie J. Hoover, in his book Fallacies of Evolution, is just one of many who have asked: Where are all the simpler creatures that should have led up to these complex forms, if “molecules to man” evolution is supposed to be a scientific fact? This problem is so acute that even the modern “father of evolution,” Charles Darwin, admitted that it “may truly be urged as a valid argument” against evolution.

    Strong evidence for creation
    The sudden appearance of these Cambrian animals with no antecedents definitely suggests creation rather than evolution. Creationists say that animals were created with all their parts intact right from the start; they didn’t evolve over a long time. And that is exactly what is found in the record of the past: the fossils. Therefore this is strong evidence for creation, but leaves evolution still floundering for missing links.

    In summary:

    Complex organs such as intestines, gills, stomachs, eyes, legs, feathers … all appear suddenly and fully formed in the fossil record. This fits the creationist belief and what the Bible’s book of Genesis implies. But it does not support the evolutionist’s idea that these structures would have evolved in animals over millions of years. This is strong evidence that the creation explanation is right and the evolution explanation is wrong.

    ______________________________

    Small changes don’t prove evolution!
    When you ask evolutionists for their favorite evidence for evolution, you will often get one of these replies:

    All dogs have evolved from an ancient type of wolf. People have bred dogs as diverse as Chihuahuas and Great Danes in a short time. If we can see so much variation occur in a short period, it is surely easy to imagine that many evolutionary changes would occur over huge periods of time.
    Finches have been studied and observed in depth, and it can be seen that their beaks change size and shape. This must be evolution in action. We can actually see these changes take place, so over a much longer time there would be enough variation for creatures to evolve into countless other creatures.
    These examples in fact show only “variation within kind.” That is, there may be many types of dogs and wolves, but this does not explain what the first wolf, for instance, evolved from. There may be many variations in beak shapes and sizes in finches, but this does not show that birds such as finches evolved from non-birds, as the evolutionary theory claims.

    What do creationologists oppose?
    Let’s get it clear what creationologists oppose. Even the most dedicated creationist and anti-evolutionist would probably accept that birds’ beaks may change size, that parts of animals may change color, that eyes and ears may change shape, and so on. Why? Because there is ample evidence that these can happen within the genetic system each creature possesses.

    What creationologists don’t accept is that such small, observed changes are evidence of much larger, unobserved changes. Creationists don’t accept that these creatures can turn into, or have evolved from, completely different kinds of creatures. The “little” changes are sometimes referred to as “microevolution” (they really don’t deserve to be called any kind of evolution, because they are observable, testable, and a normal part of variation of genetic information, but that’s what many people call them).

    The “big” changes (such as fish to amphibian, amphibian to reptile, reptile to bird), are referred to as “macroevolution”. The big changes have not been observed, and have not left any indisputably proven sequence of fossils to show that small changes have led up to really “big” changes. There is simply no mechanism to make the big changes happen and be sustained, and they are not a natural feature of genetic alteration.

    Whales evolving into whales? Horses into horses?
    When evolutionists give you “evidence” for evolution, they usually don’t realize how silly that evidence is. They may say that fossils have been found of whales with hip-joints or tiny leg-like appendages, so this proves that whales evolved from a land animal with legs. But what have they said? Whales have evolved from whales! That argument in no way shows that whales have evolved from creatures that are not whales.

    They use the same argument for horses and all sorts of other animals. They will say there is a clear sequence of fossils that shows horse evolution. But they say the first in the series was a horse and the last in the series is a horse. So what have they said? Horses have evolved from horses!

    This is like lining up a series of clocks, with a small, simple clock at one end and a complex clock at the other end, and then saying that this proves that the last one evolved from the first and that clocks evolved from something else that isn’t a clock. The fact is that they are all simply varieties of the “clock family,” and they were made as clocks to start with. They didn’t evolve from a non-clock! Likewise, animals that are whales, or horses, or birds, or whatever, in no way prove that these creatures have evolved from, or into, something else.

    Human intervention!
    Note again the example of the dogs that humans have bred. It took human intelligence and intervention to breed the wide variety of dogs in the world, but this in no way shows that non-intelligence and non-intervention can make the huge changes required to prove macroevolution. After all, humans can make buildings, shoes, and children’s toys in hundreds of variations, but this does not prove that those things could occur in nature without human input. In each case, humans have modified and adapted available material for their purpose.

    In summary:

    Stop and think when you are told that small variations prove major evolution. Dogs being bred from dogs by humans, finch beaks of different shapes and sizes, horses turning into horses, whales turning into whales, and so on, in no way indicates that these creatures evolved from animals essentially different from what they are today.

    http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/begin1.html

  111. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Just for you…

    There is more actual science to supporting Creationism than there is to support Evolution because Evolution is a lie.

    Ten Major Flaws of Evolution – Revised
    Posted in: Creation/Evolution By Randy Alcorn (with additional editing by Jim Darnall)

    I wrote the following article many years ago, but it needed to be thoroughly revised and updated. Thanks to Jim Darnall for adding some important new information.

    1. The complexity of living systems could never evolve by chance—they had to be designed and created.

    A system that is irreducibly complex has precise components working together to perform the basic function of the system. (A mousetrap is a simple example.) If any part of that system were missing, the system would cease to function. Gradual additions could not account for the origin of such a system. It would have to come together fully formed and integrated. Many living systems exhibit this (vision, blood-clotting, etc.). When you look at a watch, you assume there was a watchmaker. A watch is too complex to “happen” by chance. Yet such living systems are almost infinitely more complex than a watch. They could not be random—they simply had to be designed and created.

    2. The high information content of DNA could only have come from intelligence.

    Information science teaches that in all known cases, complex information requires an intelligent message sender. This is at the core of the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI). DNA is by far the most compact information storage/retrieval system known. A pinhead of DNA has a billion times more information capacity than a 4-gigabit hard drive. Ironically, evolutionists scan the heavens using massive radio telescopes hoping for relatively simple signal patterns that might have originated in outer space, all the while ignoring the incredibly complex evidence of superior intelligence built into every human’s DNA. While we’re waiting to hear signs of intelligence behind interstellar communication, we’re ignoring those built into us.

    3. No mutation that increases genetic information has ever been discovered.

    Mutations which increase genetic information would be the raw material necessary for evolution. To get from “amoeba” to “man” would require a massive net increase in information. There are many examples of supposed evolution given by proponents. Variation within a species (finch beak, for example), bacteria which acquire antibiotic resistance, people born with an extra chromosome, etc. However, none of the examples demonstrate the development of new information. Instead, they demonstrate either preprogrammed variation, multiple copies of existing information, or even loss of information (natural selection and adaptation involve loss of information). The total lack of any such evidence refutes evolutionary theory.
    4. Evolution flies directly in the face of entropy, the second law of thermodynamics.

    This law of physics states that all systems, whether open or closed, have a tendency to disorder (or “the least energetic state”).

    There are some special cases where local order can increase, but this is at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere. Raw energy cannot generate the complex systems in living things, or the information required to build them. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Yet, evolution is a building-up process, suggesting that things tend to become more complex and advanced over time. This is directly opposed to the law of entropy.

    5. There is a total lack of undisputed examples (fossilized or living) of the millions of transitional forms (“missing links”) required for evolution to be true.

    Evolution does not require a single missing link, but innumerable ones. We should be surrounded by a zoo of transitional forms that cannot be categorized as one particular life form. But we don’t see this—there are different kinds of dogs, but all are clearly dogs. The fossils show different sizes of horses, but all are clearly horses. None is on the verge of being some other life form. The fossil record shows complex fossilized life suddenly appearing, and there are major gaps between the fossilized “kinds.” Darwin acknowledged that if his theory were true, it would require millions of transitional forms. He believed they would be found in fossil records. They haven’t been.

    6. Pictures of ape-to-human “missing links” are extremely subjective and based on evolutionists’ already-formed assumptions. Often they are simply contrived.

    The series of pictures or models that show progressive development from a little monkey to modern man are an insult to scientific research. These are often based on fragmentary remains that can be “reconstructed” a hundred different ways. The fact is, many supposed “ape-men” are very clearly apes. Evolutionists now admit that other so-called “ape-men” would be able to have children by modern humans, which makes them the same species as humans. The main species said to bridge this gap, Homo habilis, is thought by many to be a mixture of ape and human fossils. In other words, the “missing link” (in reality there would have to be millions of them) is still missing. The body hair and the blank expressions of sub-humans in these models doesn’t come from the bones, but the assumptions of the artist. Virtually nothing can be determined about hair and the look in someone’s eyes based on a few old bones.

    7. The dating methods that evolutionists rely upon to assign millions and billions of years to rocks are very inconsistent and based on unproven (and questionable) assumptions.

    Dating methods that use radioactive decay to determine age assume that radioactive decay rates have always been constant. Yet, research has shown that decay rates can change according to the chemical environment of the material being tested. In fact, decay rates have been increased in the laboratory by a factor of a billion. All such dating methods also assume a closed system—that no isotopes were gained or lost by the rock since it formed. It’s common knowledge that hydrothermal waters, at temperatures of only a few hundred degrees Centigrade, can create an open system where chemicals move easily from one rock system to another. In fact, this process is one of the excuses used by evolutionists to reject dates that don’t fit their expectations. What’s not commonly known is that the majority of dates are not even consistent for the same rock. Furthermore, 20th century lava flows often register dates in the millions to billions of years. There are many different ways of dating the earth, and many of them point to an earth much too young for evolution to have had a chance. All age-dating methods rely on unprovable assumptions.
    8. Uses continue to be found for supposedly “leftover” body structures.

    Evolutionists point to useless and vestigial (leftover) body structures as evidence of evolution. However, it’s impossible to prove that an organ is useless, because there’s always the possibility that a use may be discovered in the future. That’s been the case for over 100 supposedly useless organs which are now known to be essential. Scientists continue to discover uses for such organs. It’s worth noting that even if an organ were no longer needed (e.g., eyes of blind creatures in caves), it would prove devolution not evolution. The evolutionary hypothesis needs to find examples of developing organs—those that are increasing in complexity.

    9. Evolution is said to have begun by spontaneous generation—a concept ridiculed by biology.

    When I was a sophomore in high school, and a brand new Christian, my biology class spent the first semester discussing how ignorant people used to believe that garbage gave rise to rats, and raw meat produced maggots. This now disproven concept was called “spontaneous generation.” Louis Pasteur proved that life only comes from life—this is the law of biogenesis. The next semester we studied evolution, where we learned that the first living cell came from a freak combination of nonliving material (where that nonliving material came from we were not told). “Chemical Evolution” is just another way of saying “spontaneous generation”—life comes from nonlife. Evolution is therefore built on a fallacy science long ago proved to be impossible.
    Evolutionists admit that the chances of evolutionary progress are extremely low. Yet, they believe that given enough time, the apparently impossible becomes possible. If I flip a coin, I have a 50/50 chance of getting heads. To get five “heads” in a row is unlikely but possible. If I flipped the coin long enough, I would eventually get five in a row. If I flipped it for years nonstop, I might get 50 or even 100 in a row. But this is only because getting heads is an inherent possibility. What are the chances of me flipping a coin, and then seeing it sprout arms and legs, and go sit in a corner and read a magazine? No chance. Given billions of years, the chances would never increase. Great periods of time make the possible likely but never make the impossible possible. No matter how long it’s given, non-life will not become alive.

    10. The scientific method can only test existing data—it cannot draw conclusions about origins.

    Micro-evolution, changes within a species on a small scale, is observable. But evidence for macro-evolution, changes transcending species, is conspicuous by its absence. To prove the possibility of anything, science must be able to reproduce exact original conditions. Even when it proves something is possible, it doesn’t mean it therefore happened. Since no man was there to record or even witness the beginning, conclusions must be made only on the basis of interpreting presently available information. If I put on rose-colored glasses, I will always see red. I accept the Bible’s teaching on creation, and see the evidence as being consistently supportive of that belief. When dealing with origins, everyone who believes anything does so by faith, whether faith in God, the Bible, himself, modern science, or the dependability of his own subjective interpretations of existing data. I would rather put my faith in God’s revealed Word.

    Recommended books on evolution:

    Refuting Evolution I and II (Dr. Jonathan Sarfati)
    The Answers Book (Revised and expanded by Ken Ham, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Dr. Carl Wieland)
    Not By Chance! (Dr. Lee Spetner)
    Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (Dr. Michael Behe)
    In the Beginning was Information (Dr. Werner Gitt)
    Darwin on Trial and Defeating Darwinism (Phillip Johnson)
    A Case Against Accident and Self-Organization (Dean L. Overman)
    The Creation Hypothesis (J. P. Moreland)
    The Case for a Creator (Lee Strobel)

    http://www.epm.org/artman2/publish/creation_evolution/Ten_Major_Flaws_of_Evolution_-_Revised.shtml

    I suppose you are also a student of Sigmund Freud

    …the good David

  112. Black David says:

    So you’ve cut and pasted nonsense that supports your holy roller fundamentalist agenda, so what? I’m supposed to be impressed by that?

    The biggest blow to your stupid holy roller theories is that your book of fairy tales fails to mention dinosaurs, which we clearly have scientific evidence existed.

    “I accept the Bible’s teaching on creation, and see the evidence as being consistently supportive of that belief. When dealing with origins, everyone who believes anything does so by faith, whether faith in God, the Bible, himself, modern science, or the dependability of his own subjective interpretations of existing data. I would rather put my faith in God’s revealed Word.”

    Which is why you’re a dumb and gullible schmuck unworthy of respect or consideration.

  113. Black David says:

    “I suppose you are also a student of Sigmund Freud”

    You mean Sigmund Fruitcake? Sorry, no. I deem psychology and psychoanalysis as junk science.

    Recall that your girlfriend yo momma suggested I see a quack doctor for whatever ill she believes I suffer from.

    If I suffer from anything it’s the inability to accept or tolerate bullcrap from people like you.

  114. prosperity7777 says:

    Adam, his descendants and the critters, birds, fish, etc. were not the first inhabitants of Planet Earth.

    The GAP Theory explains this.

    “On this website you will learn about a controversial, lesser known literal interpretation of the Genesis narrative that does not contradict the scientific evidence for an Old Earth. Commonly called the “Gap Theory” or Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation, it is a theology much older than Darwin and the Theory of Evolution. It is based on the Scriptural fact that in the second verse of Genesis, the Holy Bible simply and clearly states that the planet Earth was already here (but in a ruined state) before the creative process of the seven days even begins.”

    http://www.kjvbible.org/

    Science and Scripture; Geology and Genesis – You may actually find this interesting since it does account for your lost dinosaurs.

    http://www.kjvbible.org/main.html

    …enjoy.

    …the good David

    P.S. Glad to hear you weren’t taken in by Sigmund Fraud. There is hope for you!

  115. trekker2 says:

    why are you people debating with a demon? casting pearls before swine and giving what is holy to a dog – only to have it rare up and rend you over and over?

  116. David Black says:

    I like that … I’m a demon … GRRRR! Here’s my pitchfork! Look at my horns and pointy tail! GRRR!

    Trekker2 … that’s not a very Christian response, to call someone a dog.

  117. prosperity7777 says:

    trekker2.

    Relax Bro!

    BD just thinks himself to be a devout heathen, among other things.

    He is just looking for Jesus and doesn’t know it.

    …the good David

  118. trekker2 says:

    Devout heathen aren’t arbitrors of what is Christian. The admonition not to give holy and precious things to those who trample on them is the counsel of the Master. Matthew 7:6. Jesus minced no words on this. He invested his time and attention in those who were open and humble, with awareness of their neediness. He was not dismayed by or condemning of the vilest of sinners, but wasted none of his valuable time and attention on critics and those with stubborn, unrepentant hearts. He did always those things he saw and heard of the Father. He told them how it is and left it to their choice. He prayed. Is there a better way than his? God is very good at dealing in lives to bring truth to light and arrest attention. We are not. We are only effective on his assignment, which carries the associated empowerment. Have those?

  119. prosperity7777 says:

    trekker2,

    Nice theory, but I don’t see it in the Bible. Paul was the worst of the worst. He murdered Christians coming and going, but Jesus took the challenge by appearing to a a Paul, and got his attention by blinding him for three days. On the other hand, Black David doesn’t hate Christians enough to go about killing them. So if there was hope for Paul, there is hope for Black David. I totally disagree with your presumption that God did not give us His ability to deal in peoples lives, to bring truth to light and arrest attention. God has made us able to do all of these things. We have is ability in us. We can do all things through Christ Jesus. We have the Gifts of the Spirit. We have his Word. We have His Commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living creature. Black David is a living creature. You say that Jesus only dealt with those who were willing, but Jesus went into a town and tried to impart healing to many, but few received because of their unbelief. The only real reason that a person like Black David hangs around a Christian blog like this one is because he is looking for an answer to his life, even if he doesn’t admit it. Even if that isn’t the reason, the Word is still the seed, which anyone can plant in Black David’s heart. Even though we may never know when this seed will germinate, we do know that God’s word does not return to Him void, but accomplished its intended purpose.

    You and I world have a difference of opinion as to what would qualify as a pearl and swine.

    Black David isn’t swine. He is just someone who is trying to avoid ending up as worm food, as he puts it. The very fact that he dwells on this point should tell you how much the idea of death really bothers him. As nasty as he tries to act, I have seen another side to him. A very human side who needs Jesus and Jesus needs Black David.

    …the good David

  120. trekker2 says:

    The Damascus Road experience did not come out of tit-for-tat. They didn’t play with it; they prayed with it. Saul didn’t become Paul because someone jovialed him along, ignoring obvious things such as wisdom that says to do otherwise and unresponsiveness. They were used of God, not the opposer. They didn’t stab at it, coax along nor attempt to understand, thereby accommodating his world view. They operated in the real arena of action. There came divine intervention and no one got a notch in their belt except Jesus.

    Some people in Jesus’ ministry continued to refuse and insist on their own way. Not even he could do anything with them in that condition. He moved on to those who judged themselves worthy of his help by their openness. God will force no one, only offer. He has given and will respect every man’s right to choose. Once the message has been given and is understood, it is on them, not on him or on his messengers.

  121. trekker2 says:

    Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

  122. trekker2 says:

    Mt 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

  123. David Black says:

    “The only real reason that a person like Black David hangs around a Christian blog like this one is because he is looking for an answer to his life, even if he doesn’t admit it. ”

    Wrong! I post to point out the folly of believing in mythical beings and a book of fairy tales. I also post to express my contempt for people who can’t think for themselves.
    It disgusts me that so many humans have to be lemmings instead of free thinkers.

  124. prosperity7777 says:

    trekker2
    August 11, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    RE: “The Damascus Road experience did not come out of tit-for-tat. They didn’t play with it; they prayed with it. Saul didn’t become Paul because someone jovialed him along, ignoring obvious things such as wisdom that says to do otherwise and unresponsiveness. They were used of God, not the opposer. They didn’t stab at it, coax along nor attempt to understand, thereby accommodating his world view. They operated in the real arena of action. There came divine intervention and no one got a notch in their belt except Jesus.”

    I have no idea what you are talking about in the above quote. Jesus responded to Stephen’s prayer that Stephen prayed for Paul while Stephen was being stoned death. Jesus was responding to Stephen’s extraordinary faith in God’s love for Paul, and all those who murdered him, even while Paul was helping to murder Stephen by holding the cloaks of the stone throwers. Paul was on his way to kill more Christians when he ran into the Lord of Glory.

    RE: “Some people in Jesus’ ministry continued to refuse and insist on their own way. Not even he could do anything with them in that condition. He moved on to those who judged themselves worthy of his help by their openness. God will force no one, only offer. He has given and will respect every man’s right to choose. Once the message has been given and is understood, it is on them, not on him or on his messengers.”

    Where did I say God would force people to become Christians. Actually most of the heathen he helped didn’t judge themselves worthy. They just knew they wanted wheat He was offering.

    Maybe you should just minister to those who you think God has called you to minister to and I ill do the same.

    RE: “Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    Mt 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

    What is your point?

    …the good David

  125. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David..

    Like I said, you are just another heathen looking for Jesus.

    …the Good David

  126. David Black says:

    Like I said, you are another pathetic fool who can’t manage through life by your own wits and who needs a mythical carrot at the end of a big mythical stick to keep him in line.

  127. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Jesus is your answer.

    …the good David

  128. David Black says:

    Oh really?

    Does he do inexpensive plumbing work?

  129. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Why don’t you ask Him?

    …the good David

  130. David Black says:

    I’m looking in the yellow pages right now and I see a Jesus Ruiz and a Jesus Aguila listed as plumbers in my area. Does this guy have his green card?

  131. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Boy, are you deaf as well as obtuse?

    Why don’t you ask Him.

    …the good David

  132. g9momma says:

    Still praying for you BD🙂
    Love you every day🙂

  133. g9momma says:

    🙂 God loves you too🙂

  134. David Black says:

    A blast from the past …

    (this is a cut and paste, so the punctuation isn’t mine)

    “Jesus Thinks You’re a Jerk”

    Theres an ugly little wasel bout three-foot nine
    Face puffed up from cryin n lyin
    cause her sweet little hubbys
    Suckin prong part time
    (in the name of the lord)

    Get a clue, little shrew
    Oh yeah, oh yeah
    Jesus thinks youre a jerk

    Did he really choose tammy to do his work?
    Robertson says that hes the one
    Oh he sure is,
    If armageddon
    Is your idea of family fun,
    An hes got some planned for you!
    (now, tell me that aint true)

    Now, what if jimbos slightly gay,
    Will pat let jimbo get away?
    Everything weve heard him say
    Indicated that jim must pay,
    (and it just might hurt a bit)
    But keep that money rollin in,
    cause pat and naughty jimbo
    Cant get enough of it

    Perhaps its their idea
    Of an affirmative action plan
    To give white trash a special break;
    Well, they took those jeezo-bucks and ran
    To the bank! to the bank! to the bank! to the bank!
    And every night we can hear them thank
    Their buddy, up above
    For sending down his love
    (while you all smell the glove)

    Jim and pat should take a pole
    (right up each saintly glory-hole),
    With tar and feathers too —
    Just like theyd love to do to you

    (cause they think you are bad —
    And they are very mad)

    cause some folks dont want prayer in school!

    (wed need an ark to survive the drool
    Of micro-publicans, raised on hate,
    And jimbo-jimbo when they graduate)

    Conviced they are the chosen ones —
    And all their parents carry guns,
    And hold them cards in the n.r.a.
    (with their fingers on the triggers
    When they kneel and pray)

    With a ku-klux muu-muu
    In the back of the truck,
    If you aint born again,
    They wanna mess you up, screamin:
    no abortion, no-siree!
    lifes too precious, cant you see!
    (whats that hangin from the neighbors tree?
    Why, it looks like colored folks to me —
    Would they do that…seriously? )

    Imagine if you will
    A multi-millionaire television evangelist,
    Saved from korean combat duty by his father, a u.s. senator

    Studied law —
    But is not qualified to practice it

    Father of a love child
    Who, in adulthood, hosts the remnants
    Of papas religious propaganda program

    Claims not to be a faith healer,
    But has, in the past,
    Dealt stearnly with everything from hemorrhoids to hurricanes

    Involved with funding for a secret war in central america
    Claiming ronald reagan and oliver north as close friends

    Involved in suspicous tax-avoidance schemes,
    (under investigation for 16 months by the i.r.s.)

    Claims to be a man of god;
    Currenty seeking the united states presidency,
    Hoping we will all follow him into —
    The twilight zone

    What if pat gets in the white house,
    And suddenly —
    The rights of certain people disappear
    Mysteriously?

    Now, wouldnt that sort of qualify
    As an american tragedy?
    (especially if he covers it up, sayin
    jesus told it to me!)

    I hope we never see that day,
    In the land of the free —
    Or someday will we?
    Will we?

    And if you dont know by now,
    The truth of what Im tellin you,
    Then, surely I have failed somehow —

    And jesus will think Im a jerk, just like you —
    If you let those tv preachers
    Make a monkey out of you!

    I said:
    jesus will think youre a jerk
    And it would be true!

    Theres an old rugged cross
    In the land of cutton —
    Its still burnin on somebodys lawn
    And it still smells rotten

    Jim and tammy!
    Oh, baby!
    You gotta go!
    You really got to go!

  135. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David,

    Why don’t yo go?

    …the good David

  136. prosperity7777 says:

    Black David

    Opps, I meant to say, “…U go.”

    Did I spelll U right thaaat timme.

    …the goooooooooood David

  137. g9momma says:

    Still praying for you BD🙂

    I won’t stop…tick-tock…tick-tock.
    Time is quickly passing.
    The love will forever be yours.
    Waiting for the bitterness to fade away.
    Will still love you, will still pray for you – no matter what you say.
    His love for you will never fade away.

  138. g9momma says:

    Wow…13 days without any additional posts. I am surprised.
    None the less, I am still praying for these ministries, the senators, all manors of leadership, and David Black too🙂

  139. David Black says:

    What a pity, sweetie, that your time can’t be put to better use, “communicating” with something that isn’t there over someone who could care less about you.

  140. g9momma says:

    You have the right to your own opinion David.

    Can we come to an understanding? You do not believe in anything (except worms and good spelling). I get that. That’s fine. You have the right to believe or not believe in anything you want. But then again…so do I. That is my constitutional right and more importantly, my God given right. If I choose to pray, regardless of whether or not you believe in a god or prayer, how is that bothering you? You do not like or know me. So why would you care whom I pray for?

    Your opinion will not change my mind as my opinion has not changed your mind. Agreed?

    So is it possible to communicate out side the realms of hatred?
    Or is that something that is not possible for you to do?

  141. David Black says:

    “You do not believe in anything (except worms and good spelling). I get that. ”

    I believe in other things, it’s just that I’m not going to discuss them here.

    The point of this message board, before you Jesus freaks hijacked it to spread your dogma when it wasn’t asked for, is to discuss a legal and justified Senate investigation into the finances of televangelist charlatans.

    But morons like you can’t separate your questionable belief into mythical supernatural beings from the business of our elected leaders. You act as if the USA is a theocracy. Thankfully it is not.

    You people haven’t figured it out yet, have you? The more you blather on about Jesus, the more you are going to be attacked as misguided fools. The more you express your paranoia about religious freedom being abridged, the more people like me have to lash back and tell you how moronic you are.

    Just reading posts on this board is enough evidence why evangelicals aren’t taken seriously. People like you invite ridicule with your preaching.

  142. g9momma says:

    I admit believers of Jesus have been zealous in their opinions, including myself. Yes, this message board is ment to communicate the information that the good senator Grassley is purposing. This country has certian freedoms – one is freedom of speach, another is freedom of press. However, if carefully evaluated…the purposal Mr. Grassley is offering is invading my personal an private rights. Nobody but the IRS has the right to my financial information, and they legally will have to obtain it from me personally. The government has no right to invade my privacy in requiring ministries to hand over financial information pertaining to me as a individual. The finances I freely offer have been taxed before sending it. Mr. Grassely created certian laws in the 80’s to protect the rights of people giving to organizations such as ministries. So, Mr. Grassley has a change of heart? Now he wants to adjust or amend what he already had sucessfully passed twenty years ago. That my dear sir is the true issue. Is my freedom being compromised? Yes, it most certianly is if the purposal that Mr. Grassley is attempting to get approved is permitted.

    Whether or not I believe in a mythical being…well – this country provides me the freedom to believe in whatsoever I choose. My choice, even if you disagree.

    Now with that said, you did not reply to my purposal.
    Is it possible for you to communicate without such bitter undertones to your statements? Are you able to act like a mature adult?

  143. David Black says:

    “Now with that said, you did not reply to my purposal (sic).

    Whatever “college’ you claim to be a graduate from, they should have their credentials revoked.

  144. David Black says:

    “one is freedom of speach (sic)

    If you can’t muster the intelligence to even do something as simple as to spell a freedom correctly, then you should have it taken away.

    I doubt you made it past ninth grade, Ellie Mae.

    I swear, where are most of you posters from? You’ve got to be from the southern US. Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, or somewhere equally quasi-Third World.

  145. g9momma says:

    Even more to add to your long extensive list of hate. Great!
    Is there someone or something out there that you DO like?

    I wonder if you get it…nah…you don’t.
    I mispell to see how upset you get…it is quite entertaining not to mention very comical. I can just imagine your little temper tantrum on the other end of the computer – pounding away angerily in attemps to correct my spelling and grammer. You are so predictiable David.

    Ellie Mae?
    Come on…you can do better than that can’t you?

    Sorry to disappoint you – not in the south, in fact I am far from it…I’m right down the street from you David. Close by and praying for you with now an entire army praying for you too. Tell me that just doesn’t boil your blood a little bit….come on, tell me how you really feel.
    LOL🙂

  146. David Black says:

    I think you’re a liar. No one in their right mind would purposely want to appear THAT illiterate.

    “I’m right down the street from you David.”

    I doubt it. You could never afford to live in my neighborhood.

  147. g9momma says:

    Nope ~ not a liar.
    Do not doubt…never say never. 🙂

  148. David Black says:

    Sorry, illiterates like you could never amass the necessary capital to afford a property in my neighborhood.

  149. g9momma says:

    Never say never.
    If I have money to send frivolously to KCM and many other ministries, what makes you think I couldn’t afford your little neighborhood.
    What a small minded & small thinker you are.

    I still love you David.
    My army and I are still praying for you.

  150. David Black says:

    I’m sure the upper east side of Manhattan is a reality you couldn’t possibly fathom, bohunk.

  151. g9momma says:

    Don’t bet your pants on it…because you might be caught with your pants down.

  152. David Black says:

    Dream on, sweetie, dream on. It must feel great to make claims that you know you won’t be asked to back up.

    By the way, my latest blog entry on the selection of Gov. Sarah Palin as McCain’s VP is an example of what excellent writing is like, something that you have no clue about.

  153. g9momma says:

    You called me sweetie again. I knew it! I am warming up to you.🙂
    It’s alrigh…you just can’t help yourself, I understand.

    Who said I was making a claim?
    Who is to say it is not just pure fact?
    Who is to say that I don’t know Manhattan – very well at that?
    Perhaps I am one of those closet christians and you may have passed me several times – recently. The internet is not that difficult to use, neither is mapquest grandpa. I think I am good at surprises. Perhaps some day I will show you just how good I am at surprising people. Don’t worry, I am good hearted gentle person on the inside. Nevertheless I am still praying for you and will love you even as you pass me along the streets of life.

  154. g9momma says:

    Oh, by the way…I hate vanillia, and I’m not crazy about yougart either.
    But I bet it felt good to tear yet another person apart with your cruel words.
    I would think at 62 you would have something called patience, but then again at 62 you SHOULD have good mannors too. Nevermind. I just proved my own point of your immaturity…ha-ha🙂 LOL!

  155. David Black says:

    I have LESS patience as I get older, especially with people who don’t have a clue.

    I extend patience and manners to those strangers who are deserving of my good manners. I do not offer patience and manners unconditionally to strangers. The same goes for kindness and respect.

    A stranger has to earn it. Remember, the world owes you nothing.

  156. g9momma says:

    Good to know.
    Thank you…sweetie🙂

  157. rdavid7 says:

    Senator Grassley should look no further than any Goverment Agency where nepotism is common.
    I worked for the US Postal Service for 23 years and resigned due to workplace violence in a office I was transferred to. When I tried to return to the place I began my carreer as a letter carrier a Postmasters daughter ,a now acting-supervisor, falsified a federal document to keep me from being rehired there. I have never been disciplined for anything ever yet she was able to ruin my chances of returning. Also she has faced no reprecustions for her actions. I pray for our goverment, due to that my personal experience it is clear that the truth is not there!!!

    Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

    I Coritnhians 6:1-20

  158. leonecomm says:

    What we need to concentrate is on how the Democratic and Republican Party can spend a billion dollars on campaign when there poor folks out there who can benefit from it. Of what purpose if the huge spendings except to feed into their ego. How can one party raise 55 million dollars in one month and taking money from Hamas etc and nobody is saying anything about it.

  159. David Black says:

    leonecomm: can you be that clueless? Apparently so.

    Think of all the services and amenities that were provided to support the convention and its attendees … food, drink, lodgings, accomodations, concessions, media, etc.

    Where do you think all those services and amenities appeared from? Out of thin air? Let me clue you in on some reality, pal … your beloved common man profited from working those hours providing those services and amenities to the thousands of people that flocked to Minneapolis this week.

  160. David Black says:

    CORRECTION: accommodations

  161. […] liaison to the Christian Right, takes aim at Grassley in his blog, with the awkwardly titled “People in Grassley Houses Shouldn’t Throw Stones.” Wead argues that Grassley, a Christian conservative himself, is using his office to pursue a […]

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